Catholics and Mary

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Annemariels

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I know a protestant who just can’t wrap his brain around Catholics having a devotion to Mary. It’s one of the few things keeping him from converting.

Tell me what’s required of Catholics in the Mary department. The rock bottom minimal requirements.
 
Annemariels said:
I know a protestant who just can’t wrap his brain around Catholics having a devotion to Mary. It’s one of the few things keeping him from converting.

Tell me what’s required of Catholics in the Mary department. The rock bottom minimal requirements.
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Rock bottom:#1 Mary is the mother of God. 2. He honored Her because Mary gave Him His flesh willingly.4.Knowing, God did not use her as slave as some would have it.5. We must also honor the yes of Mary that gave Her the right to raise the Christ Child on our behalf…6. To know the reality of this plan of God , that this is the way it was done; And because God could have accomplished this any way He chose, the bottom line is this is what is!

My 2cents worth
God Bless
onenow1:)
 
onenow1 said:
Rock bottom:#1 Mary is the mother of God. 2. He honored Her because Mary gave Him His flesh willingly.4.Knowing, God did not use her as slave as some would have it.5. We must also honor the yes of Mary that gave Her the right to raise the Christ Child on our behalf…6. To know the reality of this plan of God , that this is the way it was done; And because God could have accomplished this any way He chose, the bottom line is this is what is!

My 2cents worth
God Bless
onenow1:)
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X2. The immaculate conception, AFIK, is not a required belief for salvation. The perpetual virginity definitely is not a requirement. Veneration and adoration are not either. They have been described by various Popes and Doctors of the Church as being GOOD, but not as being required.

That being said, if it is something good, why reject it? It is a difficult thing to understand and accept, but I see no reason to reject it out of hand as being impossible. Part of the veneration of Mary comes from the bit of Theology regarding where we go when we die.

Ask your friend where he believes we go when we die and quote him the verse (cant remember the phrase off-hand) about “The prayer of a just man availeth much”. Who was more just on earth than Mary “full of grace”?

What does it mean to be full of grace? What is grace? etc. etc. etc. These are the points of theology that direct us as Catholics to a true understanding and devotion of Mary as the ark of the new covenant and the mother of God, the Theotokos.

But it is always, only, and everywhere JESUS the CHRIST alone who is our life and our salvation. Where veneration and devotion of Mary diverge into WORSHIP of Mary turning our eyes away from Christ rather than towards his magnificent love, at that point it becomes a bad thing.

Hope that begins something for you.

Check with the CCC for the definition of grace. And then look up Kecharitomene (Randy Carson has a great post about this) for FULL of grace.

With love,

FSC
 
Annemariels said:
I know a protestant who just can’t wrap his brain around Catholics having a devotion to Mary. It’s one of the few things keeping him from converting.

Tell me what’s required of Catholics in the Mary department. The rock bottom minimal requirements.
Click to expand...
what has been infallibly defined as dogma: Mary is the mother of Jesus and therefore the Mother of God, Theotokos, she was conceived immaculately, that is remained free from the stain of original sin from the time of her conception in the womb of her mother, through the merits of Jesus Christ her Son, and remained free therefore from actual sin and from the inclination to sin, concupiscence, her entire life. That she was a virgin at the time the Holy Spirit overshadowed her with His power and she conceived in her womb Jesus Christ, second person of the Blessed Trinity, true God and true man indivisible and one. That she remained a virgin in every sense, spiritual and physical, throughout pregnancy and delivery and her entire life on earth, and that therefore she never had marital relations with her husband Joseph nor did she bear any other children. and that at the end of that life she was assumed body and soul into heaven. And what is stated explicitly in scripture, in addition to the dogma which has been divinely revealed and preserved in Sacred Tradition and in the understanding of which the Church has grown through contemplation of these mysteries. Every doctrine about Mary is about Jesus Christ, so if you wish to know what you must believe about Mary, study the theology about Jesus, Christology.
 
Maybe it would help him to read the book “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn 🙂
 
Puzzleannie has the best answer. What is NOT required is belief in apparitions of the Virgin Mary, such as Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Lourdes, and Our Lady of Fatima. Now that said, the vast majority of Catholics probably DO believe in these apparitions, and their belief and celebration is encouraged, but it is by NO means a requirement of the faith.

Now, with regard to praying to Mary and the saints more generally, when I’m called upon to explain the concept in my college Western Civilization classes, I phrase it something like this.
  1. If you are a Christian, have you ever asked your congregation to pray for an intention, like a sick relative? The answer is that most likely, you have. Your whole congregation, together, prays aloud for the person to get better (or whatever the intention is). Is this problematic?
  2. As a Christian, do you believe in eternal life, whether it be in heaven or hell? For MOST Christian denominations, this is a key element of the faith. It is critical that we understand that when we die, we do not simply cease to exist, but continue on, thanks to the saving power of Christ. Death no longer has any power over us.
  3. So… if people do not cease to exist, and it’s ok to ask for a group of living people to pray together, why wouldn’t it be ok to ask both the living AND the dead to pray for our intentions?
Look at two famous Catholic prayers:

In the Hail Mary, we say “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray FOR us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.” We are not praying TO her as much as we are asking her to pray WITH us and FOR us.

Now, look at the Penitential Rite of the Mass, which you will hear every week in church:

“And I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
All the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray FOR me to the Lord our God.”

Catholics consider prayer so important, that here, we are actually asking the whole of creation to join us in prayer, including both the living, the dead, and even the angels and saints! This serves as a reminder that we are a part of a larger creation, and helps foster Christian unity.

I hope that helps!
 
puzzleannie said:
what has been infallibly defined as dogma: Mary is the mother of Jesus and therefore the Mother of God, Theotokos, she was conceived immaculately, that is remained free from the stain of original sin from the time of her conception in the womb of her mother, through the merits of Jesus Christ her Son, and remained free therefore from actual sin and from the inclination to sin, concupiscence, her entire life. That she was a virgin at the time the Holy Spirit overshadowed her with His power and she conceived in her womb Jesus Christ, second person of the Blessed Trinity, true God and true man indivisible and one. That she remained a virgin in every sense, spiritual and physical, throughout pregnancy and delivery and her entire life on earth, and that therefore she never had marital relations with her husband Joseph nor did she bear any other children. and that at the end of that life she was assumed body and soul into heaven. And what is stated explicitly in scripture, in addition to the dogma which has been divinely revealed and preserved in Sacred Tradition and in the understanding of which the Church has grown through contemplation of these mysteries. Every doctrine about Mary is about Jesus Christ, so if you wish to know what you must believe about Mary, study the theology about Jesus, Christology.
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Rolltide said:
Puzzleannie has the best answer. What is NOT required is belief in apparitions of the Virgin Mary, such as Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Lourdes, and Our Lady of Fatima. Now that said, the vast majority of Catholics probably DO believe in these apparitions, and their belief and celebration is encouraged, but it is by NO means a requirement of the faith.

Now, with regard to praying to Mary and the saints more generally, when I’m called upon to explain the concept in my college Western Civilization classes, I phrase it something like this.
  1. If you are a Christian, have you ever asked your congregation to pray for an intention, like a sick relative? The answer is that most likely, you have. Your whole congregation, together, prays aloud for the person to get better (or whatever the intention is). Is this problematic?
  2. As a Christian, do you believe in eternal life, whether it be in heaven or hell? For MOST Christian denominations, this is a key element of the faith. It is critical that we understand that when we die, we do not simply cease to exist, but continue on, thanks to the saving power of Christ. Death no longer has any power over us.
  3. So… if people do not cease to exist, and it’s ok to ask for a group of living people to pray together, why wouldn’t it be ok to ask both the living AND the dead to pray for our intentions?
Look at two famous Catholic prayers:

In the Hail Mary, we say “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray FOR us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.” We are not praying TO her as much as we are asking her to pray WITH us and FOR us.

Now, look at the Penitential Rite of the Mass, which you will hear every week in church:

“And I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
All the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray FOR me to the Lord our God.”

Catholics consider prayer so important, that here, we are actually asking the whole of creation to join us in prayer, including both the living, the dead, and even the angels and saints! This serves as a reminder that we are a part of a larger creation, and helps foster Christian unity.

I hope that helps!
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:o ahhem… I stand corrected. Wish I could say something else, but… i cant. Just that I stand corrected.

Thank you,

FSC
 
So, as long as he believes those things about Mary, it’s ok for him to treat her as background noise so-to-speak and not give her the attention people like me give her?

I can’t imagine my home without statues and pictures of her, and more importantly, I can’t imagine my spiritual life without her. Makes it hard for me to basically tell him he can pretty much ignore the Blessed Mother as long as he believes she was a virgin, ect.

He wants a yes or no answer - does he have to honor her and give her the attention that we Marianist types do?

I guess the short answer is: yes and no. No, as long as Yes you do believe what we believe about her being ever-virgin, ect.

Do I have this right?
 
Annemariels said:
So, as long as he believes those things about Mary, it’s ok for him to treat her as background noise so-to-speak and not give her the attention people like me give her?

I can’t imagine my home without statues and pictures of her, and more importantly, I can’t imagine my spiritual life without her. Makes it hard for me to basically tell him he can pretty much ignore the Blessed Mother as long as he believes she was a virgin, ect.

He wants a yes or no answer - does he have to honor her and give her the attention that we Marianist types do?

I guess the short answer is: yes and no. No, as long as Yes you do believe what we believe about her being ever-virgin, ect.

Do I have this right?
Click to expand...
Yes, you have to believe the dogmas about Mary. No, you don’t have to do a single thing extra to honor Mary, save for the various prayers that might contain references to her at Mass, such as the Penitential Rite. Even the Rosary is only optional. That would apply to the veneration of ANY saint, I might add. However, yes, you must recognize that such worship is legitimate within the beliefs of the Catholic Church.
 
I should also add that there are certain beliefs about Mary that are NOT dogma, such as being Co-redemptrix, Co-mediatrix, and the question as to whether Mary actually physically died before she went to heaven. (Some argue that because she was Immaculately Conceived and had no original sin, that she would not have suffered the penalty of death inflicted upon mankind from Adam and Eve’s sin.) These ideas are still up for theological discussion and speculation.
 
One does NOT have to be particularly devoted to Mary to be a good Catholic. A priest friend of mine only prays the rosary when requested to do so for a wake or some such thing. As long as one accepts the doctrines of the Church about Mary…that’s sufficient.
 
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