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Elzee
Guest
Have any of your ever heard this? Instead of saying ‘Catholics are Christians’, I’ve heard Evangelicals say ‘Catholics can be Christians’. If you’ve head this remark before, what do you say?
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masterjedi747
Guest
That Catholics are Christians. And that Christians can be Catholics. They’re backwards.
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RobNY
Guest
Ask him how he defines a Christian? Perhaps by his definition we are not. But it’s very hard to take a definition and hold to it. You’ll have to test him thoroughly with examples to see.
The CC defines a Christian as a personaly validly baptized in the Trinitarian formula. Of course, that person can be a bad Christian, but a Christian nonetheless. It seems to me that this particular statement if made should be aimed in more of a, “Catholics can be good Christians.” Even then it is vague. Good would have to be taken to be more than morally good, but also good as holding to orthodox beliefs.
And always remember:
Evangelicals can be mistaken.
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Eden
Guest
I usually just state that Catholics were the first Christians.
I was just at a park near our home with my kids the other day. A little girl who was only about 9 started talking to me when I was sitting on a bench reading. My book had the word “Catholic” in it. She said, “Are you Catholic?” And I said, “Yes. Are you?” She said, “No. I’m Christian.” So, I made the point of saying "Sometimes people think Catholics are not Christian but actually they are the first Christians. ‘Catholic’ just means “universal”. She seemed a little concerned and wary when she asked me if I was Catholic. I was grateful for the opportunity to plant a seed.
I was just at a park near our home with my kids the other day. A little girl who was only about 9 started talking to me when I was sitting on a bench reading. My book had the word “Catholic” in it. She said, “Are you Catholic?” And I said, “Yes. Are you?” She said, “No. I’m Christian.” So, I made the point of saying "Sometimes people think Catholics are not Christian but actually they are the first Christians. ‘Catholic’ just means “universal”. She seemed a little concerned and wary when she asked me if I was Catholic. I was grateful for the opportunity to plant a seed.
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TLEtweety
Guest
I’ve also heard, “yeah, I think some Catholics are saved.”
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Fidelis
Guest
Implied in the statement “Catholics can be Christians” is the belief that the speaker —he, himself-- willl make that determination and be the final arbiter of who is and isn’t a Christian, thank you. Seems pretty arrogant to me.
There’s an Evangelical with a popular afternoon call-in show who says this often. He always adds the qualifer that “…having said that, if the person IS a Christian, I wouldn’t understand how that person could remain a Catholic and ascribe to it’s system of works-righteousness…blah, blah, blah.”
In other words, for a Catholic to be a “Christian” he’d have to stop being a Catholic.
There’s an Evangelical with a popular afternoon call-in show who says this often. He always adds the qualifer that “…having said that, if the person IS a Christian, I wouldn’t understand how that person could remain a Catholic and ascribe to it’s system of works-righteousness…blah, blah, blah.”
In other words, for a Catholic to be a “Christian” he’d have to stop being a Catholic.
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Nicene
Guest
Evangelicals can be christian too. And actually I’m not kidding. Met one the other day, great guy, had a nice long talk for 4 hours. Billy Graham is one of the best protestants out there. I wish more evangelicals were like him instead of the rest of them.
Edit: Edited for charity
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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StCsDavid
Guest
It reminds me of my grandfather (may he rest in peace) explaining to me when I was a child…“Now not all of them are bad…there’s some good (insert racial slur describing African Americans), too.” Sadly, I believe many Protestants level of prejudice is to the point that they believe that “not all of them Catholics is bad.”
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Montie_Claunch
Guest
I have heard it. I don’t say anything 'cause I don’t think I could say anything chairtably which would really go against the grain (as I see it). If anyone knows of anything that wouldn’t come off as “I am going to wait for you on the playground!” I would love to hear it.
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RyanL_s_Wife
Guest
I really think it depends on your definition of Christian. Most people using the phrase “Catholics can be Christians” probably define Christian along the lines of someone trying to follow Christ. Therefore, Baptists CAN be Christians, Lutherans CAN be Christians, Methodists CAN be Christians etc, etc… and some in those groups may not be Christians as well.
Therefore, if someone using this phrase knows a Catholic who only goes to Mass on Easter and Christmas and couldn’t be concerned with the Church otherwise, then they would probably not consider them a Catholic who is a Christian. On the otherhand, if a Catholic is seen as trying to live his life as Christ desired, then they would be considered a Catholic who is a Christian.
I actually think the phrase Catholics can be Christians could be viewed as a defense for Catholics by a non-catholic. While non-catholics don’t agree with what the Catholic church teaches, the users of these phrases typically aren’t damning all Catholics merely because they are Catholic. It is more about actions, not religion. Make sense?
Basically, if someone is using the phrase Catholics can be Christian, then they are obviously not totally anti-catholic. While they may have some issues with Catholic theology, they probably don’t see her as the Whore of Babylon or anything idiotic like that.
They see the word Christian as being based on a person’s actions, not on any particular religion.
At least that is how I always viewed it.
RyanL’s Wife
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havemercy
Guest
RyanL's Wife:
But the Pope being the Antichrist…Not so uncommon.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Reminds me of something our Msgr said a few weeks ago during Mass – all weeds are reeds but not all reeds are weeds … or is it the other way around?
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Cairisti
Guest
I’ve heard this all my life! Only this Thanksgiving my elder brother was saying :Well, the Catholics, I guess they are still Christian but just barely for now" Now? Argh! He’s one of those I haven’t told that his baby sister is coming into the Church this Easter Vigil.
How did we suddenly get from being the first Christians to being “Not Christians?” What’s this “False Gospel?” From what I have studied , Catholisim teaches the True Gospel. :banghead: Sorry, but I’m getting rather tired of this “we’re not Christian” ect.
Argeh! Thankfully, only 23 more days till we cross the Tiber!
How did we suddenly get from being the first Christians to being “Not Christians?” What’s this “False Gospel?” From what I have studied , Catholisim teaches the True Gospel. :banghead: Sorry, but I’m getting rather tired of this “we’re not Christian” ect.
Argeh! Thankfully, only 23 more days till we cross the Tiber!
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Nicene
Guest
The church has always been in a spiritual battle and will be until Christ comes. In the parable of the sower we can see the church will be attacked by evil from within and without. Satans attacks never cease.I’ve heard this all my life! Only this Thanksgiving my elder brother was saying :Well, the Catholics, I guess they are still Christian but just barely for now" Now? Argh! He’s one of those I haven’t told that his baby sister is coming into the Church this Easter Vigil.
How did we suddenly get from being the first Christians to being “Not Christians?” What’s this “False Gospel?” From what I have studied , Catholisim teaches the True Gospel. :banghead: Sorry, but I’m getting rather tired of this “we’re not Christian” ect.
Argeh! Thankfully, only 23 more days till we cross the Tiber!
In modernity people tend to downplay evil and Satan. That’s real relativism. But the spiritual battle is real. Prayer is the spiritual weapon. Prayer for the church; The magisterium, the clergy, and the laity, prayer for protection and for vocations.
So get out your machine guns
(Prayer books and rosaries) Personally I like prayers to St. Michael. Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Jeanette_L
Guest
What they consider Christian is whether you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is the “born again” litmus test. And they think that because Catholics don’t use this language, or agree that this is all there is to being a Christian, they doubt that very many Catholics make it to being a Christian by their terms.
So when a Catholic says they are a Christian, but are not saved yet, they cannot understand one without the other, in their minds, if you are “born again”, have a personal relationship with Jesus, you are saved.
They don’t understand baptism as having anything to do with being Christian, it is just a rite (although they hate that word too, they will say symbol). Whereas Catholics make that a determining factor in being a Christian.
Another thing that doesn’t help, is there are a boatload of Catholics out there, that when asked if they are a Christian, they say “no, I’m a Catholic”. It really doesn’t help Evangelicals to think that Catholics are Christians when they don’t even identify themselves as Christians.
So when a Catholic says they are a Christian, but are not saved yet, they cannot understand one without the other, in their minds, if you are “born again”, have a personal relationship with Jesus, you are saved.
They don’t understand baptism as having anything to do with being Christian, it is just a rite (although they hate that word too, they will say symbol). Whereas Catholics make that a determining factor in being a Christian.
Another thing that doesn’t help, is there are a boatload of Catholics out there, that when asked if they are a Christian, they say “no, I’m a Catholic”. It really doesn’t help Evangelicals to think that Catholics are Christians when they don’t even identify themselves as Christians.
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imroc
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I say, “Thanks for allowing me to be welcomed!” Then I would go on to say something like, “…but where’s that in the Bible? You are implying that one has to express some type of authority to make such a claim. So, by what authority do you make this claim?”
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Yea I have had someone tell me to my face that I wasn’t Christian. I have also noticed that people like that like to tell you who you worship too:
“You worship Mary”
“You worship Statues”
Bla bla bla bla bla
“You worship Mary”
“You worship Statues”
Bla bla bla bla bla
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Todd_Easton
Guest
If you define a Christian as someone who has committed his whole life to Jesus Christ then even the late Pope John Paul II would agree that Catholics can be Christians.
Consider what Pope John Paul II wrote in his Apostolic Exhortation On Catechesis in Our Time (Catechesi Tradendae) :19. The specific character of catechesis, as distinct from the initial conversion-bringing proclamation of the Gospel, has the twofold objective of maturing the initial faith and of educating the true disciple of Christ by means of a deeper and more systematic knowledge of the person and the message of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But in catechetical practice, this model order must allow for the fact that the initial evangelization has often not taken place. A certain number of children baptized in infancy come for catechesis in the parish without receiving any other initiation into the faith and still without any explicit personal attachment to Jesus Christ; they only have the capacity to believe placed within them by baptism and the presence of the Holy Spirit; and opposition is quickly created by the prejudices of their non-Christian family background or of the positivist spirit of their education. In addition, there are other children who have not been baptized and whose parents agree only at a later date to religious education: for practical reasons, the catechumenal stage of these children will often be carried out largely in the course of the ordinary catechesis. Again, many pre-adolescents and adolescents who have been baptized and been given a systematic catechesis and the sacraments still remain hesitant for a long time about committing their whole lives to Jesus Christ, even though they do not actually try to avoid religious instruction in the name of their freedom. Finally even adults are not safe from temptations to doubt or to abandon their faith, especially as a result of their unbelieving surroundings. This means that “catechesis” must often concern itself not only with nourishing and teaching the faith but also with arousing it unceasingly with the help of grace, with opening the heart, with converting and with preparing total adherence to Jesus Christ on the part of those who are still on the threshold of faith. …
Consider what Pope John Paul II wrote in his Apostolic Exhortation On Catechesis in Our Time (Catechesi Tradendae) :19. The specific character of catechesis, as distinct from the initial conversion-bringing proclamation of the Gospel, has the twofold objective of maturing the initial faith and of educating the true disciple of Christ by means of a deeper and more systematic knowledge of the person and the message of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But in catechetical practice, this model order must allow for the fact that the initial evangelization has often not taken place. A certain number of children baptized in infancy come for catechesis in the parish without receiving any other initiation into the faith and still without any explicit personal attachment to Jesus Christ; they only have the capacity to believe placed within them by baptism and the presence of the Holy Spirit; and opposition is quickly created by the prejudices of their non-Christian family background or of the positivist spirit of their education. In addition, there are other children who have not been baptized and whose parents agree only at a later date to religious education: for practical reasons, the catechumenal stage of these children will often be carried out largely in the course of the ordinary catechesis. Again, many pre-adolescents and adolescents who have been baptized and been given a systematic catechesis and the sacraments still remain hesitant for a long time about committing their whole lives to Jesus Christ, even though they do not actually try to avoid religious instruction in the name of their freedom. Finally even adults are not safe from temptations to doubt or to abandon their faith, especially as a result of their unbelieving surroundings. This means that “catechesis” must often concern itself not only with nourishing and teaching the faith but also with arousing it unceasingly with the help of grace, with opening the heart, with converting and with preparing total adherence to Jesus Christ on the part of those who are still on the threshold of faith. …
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SPH1
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I’d counter that Catholics are the only ones who fully can be Christians; the only ones who can fully have a true and perfect “relationship with Christ.”
Heretics & schismatics by definition have a wounded and imperfect “relationship with Christ” at best. This shouldn’t offend, as your Evangelical pretty much believes the same thing about Catholics anyway.
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Contarini
Guest
When most evangelicals say “Christians,” they mean what Catholics mean by “in a state of grace.” Thus, the statement “Catholics can be Christians” means “Catholics can have a right relationship with God and be in a state of grace.” It’s not a statement with which Catholics have any reason to take issue substantively, though the way in which it is put is rather patronizing. The corollary, “some Catholics are not Christians,” simply means “not all Catholics are in a state of grace,” which is uncontroversial (and yes, evangelicals would say the same of Protestants).
I think this way of using the word “Christian” is nutty. But it’s the way most evangelicals use it.
Edwin
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