Catholics disagreeing with Catholics (part 1)

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Antonio_B

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Recurring themes.

I have found certain themes that keep coming back, especially by progressive Catholics. Therefore, I’ve decided to once and for all give an answer to those themes in the hope that we can move the debate forward.

Theme # 1 We (lay people) should never criticize the bishops and to do so is a sign of disrespect.

The document from the council dealing with the Apostolate of the Laity makes it clear we must take responsibility for our Church, not just the bishops. If our bishops do their job we praise them. If they don’t, we give them constructive criticism for them to move in the right direction. Being critical of our bishops is neither disrespectful nor anti-clerical, it’s our duty as Catholics who care and love our Church. Fulton J. Sheen, in the seventies, made clear we, Catholic lay people, must be critical when needed:

"Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops, like bishops and your religious act like religious."

**Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen **

speaking before the Knights of Columbus

June 1972


Theme # 2 Those Catholics who supported the war in Iraq are contradicting our Holy Father who opposed such a war and therefore they are “cafeteria Catholics.”

Not only is this view incorrect, but I feel it is a cheap shot and a calumny against those of us who indeed do support the war. To this day neither church officials nor the Holy Father has explained to me and millions of Catholics who supported and support the war, what is wrong with liberating a country of 30 years of tyranny where women were routinely raped, mass graves were created for political enemies, the Kurds, men, women, and children were gassed by Saddam Hussein. Most people in Iraq lived in poverty while the tyrant built palaces, torture was routine and people lived in fear of the dictator. When someone finally explains to me what is so wrong with ending with that nightmare, then I’ll embrace the idea that the war on Iraq was unjust.

Repeatedly I have stated in this forum that as Catholics we have something we call in moral theology a **prudential **judgement to decide what is and what is not an just war and still remain good Catholics. We didn’t invent “prudential judgment” nor is it an excuse to become “cafeteria Catholics.” Indeed prudential judgment is a legitimate teaching of Catholic moral theology. Here is what the head of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith recently stated regarding the subject of war:

Words of Ratzinger in Part II

Antonio 🙂
 
Ok Antonio, by the way love the name, The bishop thing I agree with and try to defend our Bishop’s and priest’s.

But the war thing I have never seen a document that states the Pope says this is an unjust war. Also if it is an opinion does it make one a cafeteria catholic, The Pope’s opinion on Captial Punishment is very strong, but many people still believe it is ok since the church has never put a canon law against it.

So if it is the Pope’s opinion not Dogma, Doctrine or Canon Law, how does that make one a cafeteria catholic?

I would love to see the actually writing on what the Pope said against the war. My son happens to be in the army if you did not read that in any of my posts. So obviously you see where I am coming from on this issue.

We should defend all life… not pick and chose whose lives should be saved and whose should be spared.
When it is the good of mankind that certain elements be removed so that rape, murder, torture is no longer allowed in ones country, then the goal should justify the war.
As people use this argument in Capital Punishment, but I do not believe this makes one a cafeteria catholic since even the Pope is entitled to his own opinion as Man!


Please do not think I do not love and follow our Holy Father, but I do know that the Pope does have opinions also that everyone does not always agree with. He is still a man when it comes to life issues, he is infallible in making decisions for the church.
 
Antonio B:
To this day neither church officials nor the Holy Father has explained to me and millions of Catholics who supported and support the war
I’m sure it was an oversight on the pope’s part, perhaps he lost your phone number. Maybe we should ask him to call you?
 
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Toni:
Ok Antonio, by the way love the name, The bishop thing I agree with and try to defend our Bishop’s and priest’s.

But the war thing I have never seen a document that states the Pope says this is an unjust war.

Funny you should ask. Last night I read this “The Pope never did directly condemn the war, and some commentators have taken this as evidence that his opposition was less absoulute than media reports suggested. In fact, however, John Paul was clear as to where he stood. His closest and most authoritative aids told reporters at critical moments that the Pope was convinced the war was a mistake, and that he was aware of and approved the aggressive vocabulary with which they were stating the case against it. At no time did John Paul offer any public utterance that distance him from the antiwar declarations of Vatican personnel. The only position reading of the record is that John Paul II was strongly opposed to the Iraq war.” and get this, which I have argued here endlessly, “This does not mean that in opposing the war the Pope intended to bind the consciences of Catholics.”
(All the Pope’s Men by John Allen, Jr. P.318)

Also if it is an opinion does it make one a cafeteria catholic, The Pope’s opinion on Capital Punishment is very strong, but many people still believe it is ok since the church has never put a canon law against it.

I would not put it that way at all. I believe we have prudential judgement in decisions about the death penaly and war because neither one of these are intrinsically evil. I, personally would like to see most criminals in jail without the possibility of parole. However, the Catechism still allows me and all Catholics to accept the death penalty in cases in which the common good and safety requires it.

So if it is the Pope’s opinion not Dogma, Doctrine or Canon Law, how does that make one a cafeteria Catholic?

A cafeteria Catholic is one who rejects a definite teaching of the Church out of convenience. Many of us supported the war NOT out of convenience or because of simple support for Bush, but because we see nothing wrong in protecting this country and getting rid of an evil dictator.

I would love to see the actually writing on what the Pope said against the war. My son happens to be in the army if you did not read that in any of my posts. So obviously you see where I am coming from on this issue.

We should defend all life… not pick and chose whose lives should be saved and whose should be spared.
When it is the good of mankind that certain elements be removed so that rape, murder, torture is no longer allowed in ones country, then the goal should justify the war.
As people use this argument in Capital Punishment, but I do not believe this makes one a cafeteria catholic since even the Pope is entitled to his own opinion as Man!


Correct.

Please do not think I do not love and follow our Holy Father, but I do know that the Pope does have opinions also that everyone does not always agree with. He is still a man when it comes to life issues, he is infallible in making decisions for the church.

I have never in my 55 years of existence EVER disagreed with the stand of a Pope until the war in Iraq. If the Pope had said, "I’m against the war and I bind the conscience of all Catholics to be against it, I would have been frustrated but would have submitted my will to the Vicar of Christ. That was not the case.
 
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Tom:
Sorry Antonio, I hope yopu know I was just joking with you?
No, I didn’t know you were just joking but I’m glad you clarified yourself. Thanks!

Antonio 😃
 
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