Catholics disagreeing with Catholics (Part 1)

[Antonio_B]

Recurring themes.

Fear friends, having debate in these forums, especially the Politics forum for about three months, I have found certain themes that keep coming back, especially by progressive Catholics.

Theme # 1 We (lay people) should never criticize the bishops and to do so is a sign of disrespect.

I and several people at the Catholic Answers Forum could not disagree more. The document from the council dealing with the Apostolate of the Laity makes it clear we must take responsibility for our Church, not just the bishops. If our bishops do their job we praise them. If they don’t, we give them constructive criticism for them to move in the right direction. Being critical of our bishops is neither disrespectful nor anti-clerical, it’s our duty as Catholics who care and love our Church. Fulton J. Sheen, in the seventies, made it clear, we, Catholic lay people must be critical when needed:

“"Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops, like bishops and your religious act like religious."

**Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen **

speaking before the Knights of Columbus

June 1972
​

Theme # 2 Those Catholics who supported the war in Iraq are contradicting our Holy Father who opposed such a war and therefore they are “cafeteria Catholics.”

Not only is this view incorrect, but I feel it is a cheap shot and a calumny against those of us who indeed do support the war. To this day neither church officials nor the Holy Father has explained to me and millions of Catholics who supported and support the war, what is wrong with liberating a country of 30 years of tyranny where women were routinely raped, mass graves were created for political enemies, the Kurds, men, women, and children were gassed by Saddam Hussein. Most people in Iraq lived in poverty while the tyrant built palaces, torture was routine and people lived in fear of the dictator. When someone finally explains to me what is so wrong with ending with that nightmare, then I’ll embrace the idea that the war on Iraq was unjust.

Repeatedly I have stated in this forum that as Catholics we have something we call in moral theology a prudential judgement to decide what is and what is not an unjust war and still remain good Catholics. We didn’t invent “prudential judgment” nor is it an excuse to become “cafeteria Catholics.” Indeed prudential judgment is a legitimate teaching of Catholic moral theology. Here is what the head of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith recently stated regarding the subject of war:
Cardinal Ratzinger’s words in Part II

 

[rarndt01]

As long as our Bishops are living morally as Christ directs and teaches the dogma the church has handed down through the centuries, we should obey our bishops. Our nation is divided on the war. I personally feel it is a mess and more of our young men and women are going to die over there in the future. Bush predicts another 6 to 8 years of our troops being there. I say bring our troops home and let them run their own government.

 

[jeffreedy789]

‘When someone finally explains to me what is so wrong with ending with that nightmare, then I’ll embrace the idea that the war on Iraq was unjust.’

well, herein might be a problem. obedience to Christ, and to the church, i think means accepting what the church teaches and then learning more about it. not withholding our seal of approval until we’ve been convinced that they’re right.

this doesn’t mean we turn off our brains. it does mean that we live in obedience to our governing authorities, both civil and clerical, and learn why they say these things.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I do not envy you guys. I see valid arguments on both sides of these issues. But maybe if it was a just war, there would not be so much division among you… Instead there would be a unity of purpose. There is such a thing as a just war, when a tyrant threatens one’s own world or perhaps the whole world. But little tyrants were always living in our world and what nation can rid the whole world of all of these? Not even a superpower, such as yours would be capable of that. Because new tyrants replace old ones, so there is never any shortage of them. Now I will just have to crawl back into my pacifist Canadian cocoon while the going is good. God bless you all on both sides of these issues.

 

[Antonio_B]

rarndt01:

As long as our Bishops are living morally as Christ directs and teaches the dogma the church has handed down through the centuries, we should obey our bishops. Our nation is divided on the war. I personally feel it is a mess and more of our young men and women are going to die over there in the future. Bush predicts another 6 to 8 years of our troops being there. I say bring our troops home and let them run their own government.

I will not answer the political party of your message. I shall concentrate on the “obedience” issue.

Cardinal George banned Holy Communion in his cathedral to a bunch of homosexual activits. Cardinal Mahony welcomed the same group of people to receive Holy Communion in his cathedral. In Lincoln Nebraska a pro-abortion Catholic politician may not take Holy Communion. In Los Angeles such a politician would be welcomed at the cathedral and can indeed take Holy Communion. Six or more bishops in this country have issued pastoral letters stating that Catholics should not vote for a pro-abortion candidate. The rest of the American bishops are, at best, ambiguous on the matter. Which bishops should we obey? Since they hold opposite positions, which ones would you obey?

Now, I would love for you to actually wrestle with the church statements I quoted from rather than just simply telling us we must obey the bishops, period. It should be obvious by now to you and any serious reader, that church teaching on these moral areas is a bit more complex and that it requires from us Catholics deeper reflection before adopting a personal position.

Antonio

 

[Antonio_B]

‘When someone finally explains to me what is so wrong with ending with that nightmare, then I’ll embrace the idea that the war on Iraq was unjust.’

well, herein might be a problem. obedience to Christ, and to the church, i think means accepting what the church teaches and then learning more about it. not withholding our seal of approval until we’ve been convinced that they’re right.

this doesn’t mean we turn off our brains. it does mean that we live in obedience to our governing authorities, both civil and clerical, and learn why they say these things.

But that is precisely the point I was trying to clarified with my initial statement. It isn’t between “obedience” to Christ and His Church and disobedience. It’s between understanding what is a legitimate position and what is not a legitimate position in the eyes of the Church. It’s between understanding legitimate diversity of opinions on one or several issues, and actual dissent which leads to cafeteria Catholicism. I wish you and others would actually wrestle with the church statements I quoted from, before assuming that the issue is one of obedience to Christ’s Church.

Antonio

 

[Antonio_B]

tru_dvotion:

I do not envy you guys. I see valid arguments on both sides of these issues. But maybe if it was a just war, there would not be so much division among you… Instead there would be a unity of purpose. There is such a thing as a just war, when a tyrant threatens one’s own world or perhaps the whole world. But little tyrants were always living in our world and what nation can rid the whole world of all of these? Not even a superpower, such as yours would be capable of that. Because new tyrants replace old ones, so there is never any shortage of them. Now I will just have to crawl back into my pacifist Canadian cocoon while the going is good. God bless you all on both sides of these issues.

Nice going on this one, but it would be nice if you were to engage me or others on the issues brought up on my first post. In other words, I wish you and others would actually wrestle with the church statements I provided.

Lack of unity or actual unity of a people do not necessarily reflect whether a war is just or not. There was plenty of dissension going on during WWII and whether the war was just or not, but we all know now, in retrospective, that it was indeed just to fight a monster like Hitler.

Antonio

 

[Exporter]

My Parish had a great 8-year elementary school, and all the sports teams for the 7th and 8th graders.

Then out of the blue, a civilian that our Bishop had hired as his Education Department (sic)decided to close our grades 4th through 8th. He told us our kids could transfer all the way across town to a new school that was not even finished. 90% of our kids had to transfer to public schools.

The Bishop sent that civilian to a meeting held in our Parish heavily attended , standing room was not available for all. That civilian told our Monsenior in front of everyone that his decision would be followed.

I wrote a registered letter to the Bishop on this subject. He never answered. We were appalled that a hired hand could close our 45 year old school. The Bishop did not give a bit of money to our school. We supported it fully.

So when you try to contact a Bishop - they go and hide. So what’s the use. I think they are afraid of us.

 

[Antonio_B]

Exporter:

My Parish had a great 8-year elementary school, and all the sports teams for the 7th and 8th graders.

Then out of the blue, a civilian that our Bishop had hired as his Education Department (sic)decided to close our grades 4th through 8th. He told us our kids could transfer all the way across town to a new school that was not even finished. 90% of our kids had to transfer to public schools.

The Bishop sent that civilian to a meeting held in our Parish heavily attended , standing room was not available for all. That civilian told our Monsenior in front of everyone that his decision would be followed.

I wrote a registered letter to the Bishop on this subject. He never answered. We were appalled that a hired hand could close our 45 year old school. The Bishop did not give a bit of money to our school. We supported it fully.

So when you try to contact a Bishop - they go and hide. So what’s the use. I think they are afraid of us.

Well, if you follow the line of thought of some folks here, you are suppose to obey your bishop and shut up!

Well, I happen to believe the Bishop, on certain issues, for the common good, has an obligation to deal with Catholics and try to come to an understanding everyone could live by, by I guess I’m just fantasizing!

Antonio :crying:

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Antonio B:

Well, if you follow the line of thought of some folks here, you are suppose to obey your bishop and shut up!

Well, I happen to believe the Bishop, on certain issues, for the common good, has an obligation to deal with Catholics and try to come to an understanding everyone could live by, by I guess I’m just fantasizing!

Antonio :crying:

Watch out, Antonio. You are on a slippery slope. You should learn obedience to the church. You should learn to respect the shepherds and learn to be a better sheep.:tsktsk: Remember, they have the Holy Spirit and you ain’t got jack unless it agrees with them 100%. Now, not everything they say is infallible but you must act like it is anyway.:bowdown: If you question it and there’s not a good answer for your objection, it’s probably a discipline but it’s for your good, so you must not dissent because you will be judged harshly. Remember the sheep are there to obey and serve the shepherds, not the other way around.

Am I getting your drift?

Oh yeah, and what were those church statements you wanted to debate – something about the war?

Alan

 

[tru_dvotion]

Antonio B:

I wish you and others would actually wrestle with the church statements I provided.

Ah, I am not qualified to get involved; I merely posted one side of the Canadian viewpoint.

Lack of unity or actual unity of a people do not necessarily reflect whether a war is just or not. There was plenty of dissension going on during WWII and whether the war was just or not, but we all know now, in retrospective, that it was indeed just to fight a monster like Hitler.

That is very true. The only difference is Hitler had intentions of world domination, while Saddam’s evil was homebound. We realize Americans suffered from 9:11, and our sympathies are heartfelt, but going after Saddam was rather like barking on the wrong tree. There was a great push in Canada to get involved, but considering our operetta army and the general pacifism of the majority, thank God, it did not materialize. Our the Prime Minister at the time was a bit of a goofball, but I believe he acted rather statesman like when he decided to keep us out of the conflict.

 

[Maccabees]

I don’t see a problem here I am right and everybody else is wrong go ahead and disagree with me. You have a right to be wrong.

 

[Catholic2003]

Antonio B:

I wish you and others would actually wrestle with the church statements I quoted from, before assuming that the issue is one of obedience to Christ’s Church.

Antonio,

You remind me of the story about a patient who goes into an emergency room with a splinter. Doctor after doctor comes up and sees blood gushing from a major artery, and tries to apply pressure to stop the bleeding. However, the patient keeps yelling, “I wish you and the other doctors would actually work on removing my splinter, before assuming that the issue is my massive bleeding.”

You might just want to consider that all the people who have responded to your post might actually have some insight as to what the real problem is.

 

[usherMike]

Oficial church teaching comes from the magisterium not just from the pope or bishops. Being against the war was not from the magisterium, so it’s not the church’s oficial position to be against the war. We can stand for it or against it as we choose. I stand for it , I belive we are taught the stong should protect the weak. The war with Iraq is over, we won, Iraq is free so they won too. Now we are back to fighting the terrorists, they attacted us and we can’t let that happen again. We can’t stop till they are sent to hell. If we let up they will hit us again and again because they don’t want peace the only thing they want from us is us dead. I’m out of here now for a week I’m going on vacation. By

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Antonio B:

Theme # 2 Those Catholics who supported the war in Iraq are contradicting our Holy Father who opposed such a war and therefore they are “cafeteria Catholics.”

Awww, what does the Holy Father know about war anyway? He probably thinks some crazy stuff like “love your enemies.”

Alan

 

[Antonio_B]

AlanFromWichita:

Watch out, Antonio. You are on a slippery slope. You should learn obedience to the church. You should learn to respect the shepherds and learn to be a better sheep.:tsktsk: Remember, they have the Holy Spirit and you ain’t got jack unless it agrees with them 100%.

O.K. when my bishop states that he didn’t know any better when he transferred pedophile priests from one parish to the other, should I support him 100%? When the same bishop let’s us know just two weeks ago that he does not use gold chalices in his cathedral because that distracts the faithful from Christ’s Real Presence, should I bow to his teaching even though I just saw a beautiful Mass at the Immaculate Conception Basilica in Washington D.C., where Archbishop Justin Regali and all the priests and bishops with him were celebrating the Mass with gold chalices. Should I be obedient to my bishop when he tells me that the future of the church lies with lay vocations and closed the seminary while the Pope insists on priestly vocations. In Denver Colorado, instead of closing seminaries Archbishop Chaput is building more because of so many priestly vocations.

You are asking me to suspend my reason in favor of a blind obedience the Church has never encouraged of the faithful. St. Thomas Aquinas would never approved of a dichotomy between faith and reason. I repeat, some bishops who obvioously abuse their authority and who are NOT teaching in communion with the Bishop of Rome can’t expect faithful like me to blindly follow them into error. The slippery slope you’re talking about exists in your head, not in my attitude or my actions in the Church.

Now, not everything they say is infallible but you must act like it is anyway.:bowdown:

Wow, any church document stating such non-sense?

If you question it and there’s not a good answer for your objection, it’s probably a discipline but it’s for your good, so you must not dissent because you will be judged harshly. Remember the sheep are there to obey and serve the shepherds, not the other way around.

“Obey and serve the shepherds?” Wow, I thought it was the other way around. Foolish me, I thought the bishops were at the service of the People of God and I thought they have a duty to guide us into the truth. I guess I must ignore all the 16 documents of Vatican II to be able to follow your advise.
Are you reading this Sophia?

Am I getting your drift?

No, you’re not!

Oh yeah, and what were those church statements you wanted to debate – something about the war?

Alan

Yeah, it would be nice if you were to dissect those Church statements in order to agree or disagree with me as to how I am interpreting them.

Antonio

 

[Antonio_B]

“Ah, I am not qualified to get involved; I merely posted one side of the Canadian viewpoint.”

I didn’t think it was possible for any Canadian to give us the Canadian viewpoint on anything since I presume Canadians differ among themselves as to what is true and what is not. Am I wrong?

“That is very true. The only difference is Hitler had intentions of world domination, while Saddam’s evil was homebound.”

Homebound? So, when he attacked Kuwait that was homeboud? When he engaged his country in a bloody war against Iran, that was homebound? When terrorists used his country to prepare to attack the West, that was homebound?

“We realize Americans suffered from 9:11, and our sympathies are heartfelt, but going after Saddam was rather like barking on the wrong tree. There was a great push in Canada to get involved, but considering our operetta army and the general pacifism of the majority, thank God, it did not materialize.”

And if Canada is ever attacked by terrorists, would Canadians be willing to wallow in their pacifism and not call on the United States for military help? In other words, are you guys willing to uphold the consequences of your pacifism and the lack of support for the U.S.

Our the Prime Minister at the time was a bit of a goofball, but I believe he acted rather statesman like when he decided to keep us out of the conflict.
Well if you consider appeasement a virtue, I guess your Prime Minister was correct in denying support for an ally who has always helped your nation, but I deviate. I had hope you would actually wrestle with the church documents I quoted.
Antonio :crying:

 

[Antonio_B]

AlanFromWichita:

Awww, what does the Holy Father know about war anyway? He probably thinks some crazy stuff like “love your enemies.”

Alan

Theme #2 is not a view I uphold at all. It is a view many uphold when they criticize Catholics like me who support the war. I told you and everyone “why” many of us hold the position that the war is just. Now, you and others may disagree with us in our position, but you can’t deny that we have “reasons” for our position. Instead of making childish statements like the one you just made, it would have been nice if you had explained why our reasons for our position are somehow flawed!

Antonio

 

[Antonio_B]

usherMike:

Oficial church teaching comes from the magisterium not just from the pope or bishops. Being against the war was not from the magisterium, so it’s not the church’s oficial position to be against the war. We can stand for it or against it as we choose. I stand for it , I belive we are taught the stong should protect the weak. The war with Iraq is over, we won, Iraq is free so they won too. Now we are back to fighting the terrorists, they attacted us and we can’t let that happen again. We can’t stop till they are sent to hell. If we let up they will hit us again and again because they don’t want peace the only thing they want from us is us dead. I’m out of here now for a week I’m going on vacation. By

I fully agree with everything you stated except for the first sentence. That, somehow, did not make sense to me. Would you care too clarify the meaning of your first sentence?

Antonio

 

[Catholic2003]

Antonio B:

Wow, any church document stating such non-sense?

Since you mentioned Vatican II, try this from Lumen Gentium 25:

In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.