Catholics, if you came to believe that the resurrection did not happen, what would you do?

[tonyfish58]

It is my understanding that you are free to explain your beliefs here. You are not allowed, however, to try to convert other members to your faith.

Gertie

Dear Gertie - Thank you for the follow up - Could I safely say that no man converts any Soul, is that not the Holy Spirit.

To fully explain ones Belief one has to show the fundamental Truths at the core of the belief, thus it could be that one is only free to explain as long as it is not a full explanation

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve,

I would like to put it out there here and now, that given my recent study on the resurrection and some of the lesser known materials from the Baha’i Writings, I am not really sure where m beliefs are regarding the resurrection.

Thank you for this, Servant. I love to see intellectual honesty.

With this in mind, I would like you to know that I am not pushing any agendas here.

Very well.

I am simply trying to reconcile common Catholic understanding with the teachings of the Church and the Letters of Paul and Peter.

Peter clearly says Jesus was raised “in the Spirit”…this is a contradiction to common Catholic understanding.

I guess I am struggling to understand how this contradiction can be reconciled.

I think it is at best difficult and at worst impossible to understand the Christian Scriptures without viewing them through the lens of Sacred Tradition.

We believe that when we are resurrected our bodies will be glorified, just like that of Jesus. That means they will be changed from perishable to imperishable and from mortal to immortal. There is really nothing we have to go by other than the example of Jesus. We know that his body was real; it could be touched, it could consume food. We also know that it will have properties unlike any physical body we know; pass through physical objects, appear in different forms; disappear in an instant. It is no longer subject to the laws of physics or time and space. It lives in a completely different dimension (the abode of God) but is able to enter into ours. Is it spiritual? Yes. Is it physical? Yes, but not in the manner we understand. Is it a mystery? Absolutely.

So we cannot make judgments based upon our understanding of the universe around us and our understanding of “physical” vs. “spiritual”. And we cannot limit God’s creative power to what we can grasp. Our glorified bodies will be like nothing we have ever imagined and like nothing we have ever experienced in this life.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.…” (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Peace.

Steve

 

[tonyfish58]

Hi Steve,

I would like to put it out there here and now, that given my recent study on the resurrection and some of the lesser known materials from the Baha’i Writings, I am not really sure where m beliefs are regarding the resurrection. .

Dear Servant - Yes so many Writings still to be Translated, so many concepts yet to be examined!

I always like to consider there is always more to know about everything

We have not yet touched the introduction to the hundreds of Volumes

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Dear Gertie - Thank you for the follow up - Could I safely say that no man converts any Soul, is that not the Holy Spirit.

To fully explain ones Belief one has to show the fundamental Truths at the core of the belief, thus it could be that one is only free to explain as long as it is not a full explanation

God Bless and Regards Tony

Tony, you are free to give as full an explanation as you desire. What you can’t do is plant seeds of doubt and then offer your faith tradition as an alternative.

If you wish to say “This is what the Baha’i believe…” about any given subject, that is one thing. When you say “Your Scriptures don’t really mean what you think they mean so you should look into our faith…” then it appears as proselytizing.

Personally, what frustrates me more than anything is anyone coming along and telling me that what our Church has believed and taught since the time of the Apostles has been wrong for 2000 years and that they, barely a blip on the radar screen of history, have the real answer, while simply dismissing the Church’s position and explanation.

You are probably one of the greatest witnesses to my failures in charity due to the fact that I tend to let my emotions get the best of me at times. For that I am sorry and for that I offer you my apology. I hope to see you around here for a long time.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Servant19]

Thank you for this, Servant. I love to see intellectual honesty.

Very well.

Thankyou for your understanding. I pray that any line of questioning will not be taken as me being insincere with what I humbly laid out above

I think it is at best difficult and at worst impossible to understand the Christian Scriptures without viewing them through the lens of Sacred Tradition.

We believe that when we are resurrected our bodies will be glorified, just like that of Jesus. That means they will be changed from perishable to imperishable and from mortal to immortal. There is really nothing we have to go by other than the example of Jesus. We know that his body was real; it could be touched, it could consume food. We also know that it will have properties unlike any physical body we know; pass through physical objects, appear in different forms; disappear in an instant. It is no longer subject to the laws of physics or time and space. It lives in a completely different dimension (the abode of God) but is able to enter into ours. Is it spiritual? Yes. Is it physical? Yes, but not in the manner we understand. Is it a mystery? Absolutely.

So we cannot make judgments based upon our understanding of the universe around us and our understanding of “physical” vs. “spiritual”. And we cannot limit God’s creative power to what we can grasp. Our glorified bodies will be like nothing we have ever imagined and like nothing we have ever experienced in this life.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.…” (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Peace.

Steve

Does Sacred Tradition then happily contradict the words of Paul and Peter?

I ask because, Paul explicitly says that this change from physical body to spiritual body will happen in the twinkling of an eye, yet there are millions of physical bodies that are unchanged for millenia. How does Sacred Tradition reconcile that dichotomy? Again, this is a sincere question.

Secondly, Peter clearly talks about Jesus becoming a Spirit. How does Sacred Tradition reconcile this with the contradiction of Luke saying that He was not a Spirit? Why does Luke get precedence over Peter in this case?

Lastly, Paul clearly talks about foregoing his body, and shedding it so that he can be reunited with Jesus, in Philippians 1:22

“If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.”

How does Sacred Tradition reconcile these dichotomies please?

God bless you, and I honour what you posted to Tony, it was a noble act of love and charity

.

 

[SteveVH]

Thankyou for your understanding. I pray that any line of questioning will not be taken as me being insincere with what I humbly laid out above

Not at all.

Does Sacred Tradition then happily contradict the words of Paul and Peter?

I ask because, Paul explicitly says that this change from physical body to spiritual body will happen in the twinkling of an eye, yet there are millions of physical bodies that are unchanged for millenia. How does Sacred Tradition reconcile that dichotomy? Again, this is a sincere question.

The resurrection has not yet happened. It will happen at the final judgment when Christ returns.

Secondly, Peter clearly talks about Jesus becoming a Spirit. How does Sacred Tradition reconcile this with the contradiction of Luke saying that He was not a Spirit? Why does Luke get precedence over Peter in this case?

It would be a lot easier if I knew of what verses you were speaking.

Lastly, Paul clearly talks about foregoing his body, and shedding it so that he can be reunited with Jesus, in Philippians 1:22

“If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.”

How does Sacred Tradition reconcile these dichotomies please?

Paul is speaking of his perishable, mortal body, not the glorified body we will receive at the resurrection. He longed to be where Christ was, with his glorified body.

God bless you, and I honour what you posted to Tony, it was a noble act of love and charity

 

[Irish_Kathy]

Well, those are your beliefs, no doubt. But don’t expect us Catholics here to just take your word for it.

Our belief is that Jesus AND Jairus’ daughter are both “alive and well.” The difference is that Jesus is alive with His glorified body, and Jairus’ daughter is not yet reunited with hers (at least from where we sit in time – eternity is without time).

As Catholics, we also believe that heaven IS a real place. I understand that this is contrary to your beliefs.

Gertie

I have to agree 100% with what Gertabelle has to say. Anyone who considers themselves a real Catholic, or other Christians as well, believe in the genuine Resurection of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Nothing is going to change what we believe in this critical point of our faith!!!

:kissme: Kathy

 

[tonyfish58]

Tony, you are free to give as full an explanation as you desire. What you can’t do is plant seeds of doubt and then offer your faith tradition as an alternative.

If you wish to say “This is what the Baha’i believe…” about any given subject, that is one thing. When you say “Your Scriptures don’t really mean what you think they mean so you should look into our faith…” then it appears as proselytizing.

Personally, what frustrates me more than anything is anyone coming along and telling me that what our Church has believed and taught since the time of the Apostles has been wrong for 2000 years and that they, barely a blip on the radar screen of history, have the real answer, while simply dismissing the Church’s position and explanation.

You are probably one of the greatest witnesses to my failures in charity due to the fact that I tend to let my emotions get the best of me at times. For that I am sorry and for that I offer you my apology. I hope to see you around here for a long time. Peace. Steve

Dear SteveVH = Dear friend we are all Passionate about the Love for God, A Love the World needs to embrace!

Please consider it is not Me who has Provided the Scriptures of the Baha’i Faith, I but just share them.

Yes many are confronting to a Christian, but it is the Same for All Religions, as the Warning and Promise of Baha’u’llah embraces all Past Religions.

Baha’u’llah in About 1869, revealed a Tablet to Pope Piux IX - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html

This Tablet sums up our desire to Talk with all Catholics.

Thank you for your post and dear friend in God, I take no offense at any time! and thus no apology ever needed!

I would also like to comment re “proselytizing” - This word is very broad and in reality just to mention your religion can be taken as this in some areas! In the Baha’i Faith it has been given a Distinct Meaning and is as such.

Talking and even Teaching ones Faith to People is not, never was and never will be what is now become to be known as “proselytizing”, A bad thing.

A Christian Must witness their Faith to Others, this is Gods Instruction and thus a good thing.

Were Told and it is forbidden in the Faith of Baha’u’llah to “proselytize”. The meaning is to Force Ones Faith on Another. Thus if the Message was rejected and no further questions were asked, then we are to leave the person unto themselves.

This is a fine line on the internet as the posted thought or quoted message is Often Rejected, but other questions are asked. So do we leave or Answer? This is up to each Baha’i to decide.

Much more could be said, but this will do

God Bless you all and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

I have to agree 100% with what Gertabelle has to say. Anyone who considers themselves a real Catholic, or other Christians as well, believe in the genuine Resurection of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Nothing is going to change what we believe in this critical point of our faith!!! :kissme: Kathy

God Bless your Faith and to all People that post here with much Happiness and fulfillment!

Regards Tony