Catholics who give Catholicism a bad name

[holyrood]

This is something I’ve been struggling with lately.

While I have known some wonderful, kind, good, and giving Catholics, in the past 7 years in particular, I have been on the receiving end of some really hurtful behavior from the Catholics closest to me–big things, such as finding my ex-husband had been lying and cheating throughout our marriage, verbal/emotional/and occasional physical abuse from my parents who are very involved in the church, alcoholism and all the ugliness and hurt that comes with that, realizing my father took me to porn or porn-type movies when I was very young, my parents currently not so much as calling to find out if I’m okay in the wake of divorce and financial upheaval and becoming a single mother to a very large family, but rather actually telling people I’m imagining these things happened in my marriage, and constant negativity and trash-talking of me and of other people by my mother. (My parents, btw, live a mile and a half from me, and are in good health and perfectly aware of what’s going on.)

By contrast, the many kindnesses I have experienced have largely come lately from people who have very little faith or interest in religion, let alone Catholicism, people who are in cases even antagonistic toward religion and Christianity, people who are living lifestyles completely opposed to everything the Catholic church teaches. These are people who have welcomed me in their homes, seen good in me, supported me through the discoveries about my ex-husband’s cheating, helped me out, and given me lots of positive and uplifting words and encouragement as opposed to the criticisms coming from my family that have torn me down.

I’m strong enough in my faith to remember that I have also known wonderful, kind Catholics, and to know that people fall short of the mark and that doesn’t mean the whole faith is wrong.

But there are days it’s a struggle to see a reason to keep going to church or keep making my kids go. I haven’t said the Rosary with the kids in two months when we used to do it several times a week for 15 years on end. It has slowly dawned on me that I haven’t gotten my daughter signed up for confirmation classes and she’s unhappy with this and wants to be confirmed, and I’m having a hard time seeing a reason to bother, given the examples of my parents and ex-husband of what ‘Catholics’ are.

I know I’m wrong, but right now, it’s hard to see any point in all this when the best behavior I currently see is coming from the non-believers in my life. How do I make sense of this?

 

[theidler]

This is something I’ve been struggling with lately.

While I have known some wonderful, kind, good, and giving Catholics, in the past 7 years in particular, I have been on the receiving end of some really hurtful behavior from the Catholics closest to me–big things, such as finding my ex-husband had been lying and cheating throughout our marriage, verbal/emotional/and occasional physical abuse from my parents who are very involved in the church, alcoholism and all the ugliness and hurt that comes with that, realizing my father took me to porn or porn-type movies when I was very young, my parents currently not so much as calling to find out if I’m okay in the wake of divorce and financial upheaval and becoming a single mother to a very large family, but rather actually telling people I’m imagining these things happened in my marriage, and constant negativity and trash-talking of me and of other people by my mother. (My parents, btw, live a mile and a half from me, and are in good health and perfectly aware of what’s going on.)

By contrast, the many kindnesses I have experienced have largely come lately from people who have very little faith or interest in religion, let alone Catholicism, people who are in cases even antagonistic toward religion and Christianity, people who are living lifestyles completely opposed to everything the Catholic church teaches. These are people who have welcomed me in their homes, seen good in me, supported me through the discoveries about my ex-husband’s cheating, helped me out, and given me lots of positive and uplifting words and encouragement as opposed to the criticisms coming from my family that have torn me down.

I’m strong enough in my faith to remember that I have also known wonderful, kind Catholics, and to know that people fall short of the mark and that doesn’t mean the whole faith is wrong.

But there are days it’s a struggle to see a reason to keep going to church or keep making my kids go. I haven’t said the Rosary with the kids in two months when we used to do it several times a week for 15 years on end. It has slowly dawned on me that I haven’t gotten my daughter signed up for confirmation classes and she’s unhappy with this and wants to be confirmed, and I’m having a hard time seeing a reason to bother, given the examples of my parents and ex-husband of what ‘Catholics’ are.

I know I’m wrong, but right now, it’s hard to see any point in all this when the best behavior I currently see is coming from the non-believers in my life. How do I make sense of this?

Welcome to the human race my friend - there are nasty people in all faiths and non-faiths. Keep your eyes on God Himself, and all will be well. If it makes you feel better, so many within my Adventist tradition that I grew up in were legalistic in the extreme, judgmental, and nitpicky. But here I am coming home to the Church. That said, there are some in the Church I can’t stand, and some I dearly love sharing my time with. It’s simply life. Oddly enough, the worst people I have known have often come from my own extended family - but this does not mean that “family” in and of itself is wrong.

 

[Allegra]

I hear you. It’s a problem that I’ve experienced before as well. Some Catholics really aren’t very nice people and I suffered some pretty severe mistreatment by hypocritical Catholics in my day. On the other hand, do we go to church to be among fabulous human beings or do we go to be with God? I’ve also heard people say that a church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. I don’t know if any of that helps or not.

 

[holyrood]

a church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. I don’t know if any of that helps or not.

I’ve kept this quote at the forefront for years now, and it does help.

I think I can handle that part of the equation better than the other: that the best behavior I’m seeing right now is from those who have no time for God, have turned their backs on God, who are antagonistic toward Christianity or even religion in general, who live lives diametrically opposed to all the Church teaches. I guess it just seems pointless, right now, to put this energy into my faith, to make the sacrifices, live the lifestyle, etc., when they seem to be bearing better fruit without God and faith than some people do *with *God and faith.

And I have no intention of giving up my faith, no intention of turning my back on God, but it would just be nice to have an intellectual explanation for myself right now as to why I should continue, given that it apparently doesn’t make any difference in how people ultimately behave, given that how we treat others is a major part of what matters to God, anyway, as I understand it.

 

[Tiababe]

This is something I’ve been struggling with lately.

While I have known some wonderful, kind, good, and giving Catholics, in the past 7 years in particular, I have been on the receiving end of some really hurtful behavior from the Catholics closest to me–big things, such as finding my ex-husband had been lying and cheating throughout our marriage, verbal/emotional/and occasional physical abuse from my parents who are very involved in the church, alcoholism and all the ugliness and hurt that comes with that, realizing my father took me to porn or porn-type movies when I was very young, my parents currently not so much as calling to find out if I’m okay in the wake of divorce and financial upheaval and becoming a single mother to a very large family, but rather actually telling people I’m imagining these things happened in my marriage, and constant negativity and trash-talking of me and of other people by my mother. (My parents, btw, live a mile and a half from me, and are in good health and perfectly aware of what’s going on.)

By contrast, the many kindnesses I have experienced have largely come lately from people who have very little faith or interest in religion, let alone Catholicism, people who are in cases even antagonistic toward religion and Christianity, people who are living lifestyles completely opposed to everything the Catholic church teaches. These are people who have welcomed me in their homes, seen good in me, supported me through the discoveries about my ex-husband’s cheating, helped me out, and given me lots of positive and uplifting words and encouragement as opposed to the criticisms coming from my family that have torn me down.

I’m strong enough in my faith to remember that I have also known wonderful, kind Catholics, and to know that people fall short of the mark and that doesn’t mean the whole faith is wrong.

But there are days it’s a struggle to see a reason to keep going to church or keep making my kids go. I haven’t said the Rosary with the kids in two months when we used to do it several times a week for 15 years on end. It has slowly dawned on me that I haven’t gotten my daughter signed up for confirmation classes and she’s unhappy with this and wants to be confirmed, and I’m having a hard time seeing a reason to bother, given the examples of my parents and ex-husband of what ‘Catholics’ are.

I know I’m wrong, but right now, it’s hard to see any point in all this when the best behavior I currently see is coming from the non-believers in my life. How do I make sense of this?

Yes there are very negative persons in this world but by their bad example it is for you to not follow. We all struggle with people who kill with their tongues and sometimes they are unaware of such bad behavior even if they profess to be “Good Catholics”. You have a very strong moral conviction stick to them! We all go through some dry spells in our faith when we question what in the world is going on?..Satan does not want you to lead a clean life and welcomes all who follow him. Let God be your guide not others who speak with false tongues. Haily Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. AMEN.

 

[lutherlic]

I’ve also heard people say that a church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.

Also a related quote: the Church is a house of sinners – but not a house of sin.

 

[1inICXC]

First off, I’m sorry for this great disillusionment with the Catholics around you and the very difficult times you had to undergo.

You mentioned here your husband and your parents. Now, I don’t know what kind of Catholic your husband was, but even if he was a very fateful, catechized, Catholic this is one exception, unfortunately, it is the closest to you. I can vouch that for the most part, strong, catechized, practicing, Catholic Church, male followers, are not like that.

Your parents, well, they’re an older generation who tended to fall a lot into formalism. They did things because they had to and didn’t do other things because they were sins, period. A lot of the older generation Catholics are very much followers of " the letter of the law" not of “the Spirit of the law”. There are many Catholics out there who have a million devotions but do not know about a relationship with Jesus. Those are the hardest to deal with because they know everything that can be done and should be done but know little about the Love and the grace of God. It is even more unfortunate when those are the ones closest to us. This kind especially tend to be more bent on condemning the person for divorcing than concerned about that person’s well-being. This is NOT a Catholic attitude.

Other than your parents and your ex, do you have any strong Catholics in your social circles or in your extended family? If you are surrounded by cafeteria or formalist Catholics I’m not surprised by your disillusionment but this is perhaps where you can try to find a good, Catholic, spiritual director, a good, catholic parish and good, Catholic support groups. These all exist.

Lastly, try to forgive those who are letting you down. Recent Catholic converts, in their great zeal for the truth, can sometimes become very militant and overbearing as well, they do mellow down eventually. Be mindful of human weakness but above all do not forget, that even if every single of us turned sour, in Christ there is still only one truth and that’s reason enough to pursue it.

 

[LilyM]

There’s an excellent joke about someone reproaching a Christian writer (I think it might have been Hilaire Belloc but don’t quote me) with living much-less-than-exemplary lifestyle. His response was ‘ah, but I would be so much worse if I were not Christian’.

So ponder the fact that being Catholic, even very imperfectly, very likely gave your parents and ex the strength to resist at least some of the sin that they would have committed without it. And you have suffered that much less as a result.

And also ponder the fact that your non-religious acquaintances, the ones who are ever so good, could be much better - brilliant in fact - Saints - if to their own natural character they added the supernatural graces that can be had for the asking from God. if one but believes.

And put aside the foolish notion that having your precious daughter confirmed will not be of benefit to her - of course it will.

 

[holyrood]

being Catholic, even very imperfectly, very likely gave your parents and ex the strength to resist at least some of the sin that they would have committed without it. And you have suffered that much less as a result.

And also ponder the fact that your non-religious acquaintances, the ones who are ever so good, could be much better - brilliant in fact - Saints - if to their own natural character they added the supernatural graces that can be had for the asking from God. if one but believes.

Thank you, Lily. This is one thought I have come back to repeatedly, and it helps to hear someone else voice it ‘out loud.’

I don’t know what kind of Catholic your husband was, but even if he was a very fateful, catechized, Catholic this is one exception, unfortunately, it is the closest to you. I can vouch that for the most part, strong, catechized, practicing, Catholic Church, male followers, are not like that.

Your parents, well, they’re an older generation who tended to fall a lot into formalism. They did things because they had to and didn’t do other things because they were sins, period. A lot of the older generation Catholics are very much followers of " the letter of the law" not of “the Spirit of the law”.

My husband was raised similarly to my parents, as far as that formalism, so the same thing may apply.

Other than your parents and your ex, do you have any strong Catholics in your social circles or in your extended family? If you are surrounded by cafeteria or formalist Catholics I’m not surprised by your disillusionment but this is perhaps where you can try to find a good, Catholic, spiritual director, a good, catholic parish and good, Catholic support groups.

I have one friend in the church who is a strong and joyful Catholic. I work in the arts, which seems to attract people very much the opposite of devout Catholics. As to finding a Catholic support group, I’ll try to look into it, but the fact is, I’m currently working two jobs and trying to keep up with the needs of many kids, in addition to house repairs, forms for annulment, school registration, re-financing, and a dozen other things.

Lastly, try to forgive those who are letting you down.

I’m glad to say, I think I have. I pray for them. I see in their own backgrounds the damage that was done to them.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I think I can handle that part of the equation better than the other: that the best behavior I’m seeing right now is from those who have no time for God, have turned their backs on God, who are antagonistic toward Christianity or even religion in general, who live lives diametrically opposed to all the Church teaches. I guess it just seems pointless, right now, to put this energy into my faith, to make the sacrifices, live the lifestyle, etc., when they seem to be bearing better fruit without God and faith than some people do *with *God and faith.

I’m sure you are hurting a lot and that probably explains your attitude at the moment. Nobody can blame you for that. But I want to suggest two things.

1. What do you mean they are bearing better fruit? How? By being nice people? Please try and see it this way: everything that is good in this world comes from God. All the good deeds people do are because of God, regardless whether those people know Him or not.
2. Another thing to keep in mind when you are tempted like this is the number of people without faith who have done the most horrendous things. Think of Stalin for example, and you probably personally know someone irreligious in your life who is a piece of work. I certainly do.

 

[Incomplete]

I’ve kept this quote at the forefront for years now, and it does help.

I think I can handle that part of the equation better than the other: that the best behavior I’m seeing right now is from those who have no time for God, have turned their backs on God, who are antagonistic toward Christianity or even religion in general, who live lives diametrically opposed to all the Church teaches. I guess it just seems pointless, right now, to put this energy into my faith, to make the sacrifices, live the lifestyle, etc., when they seem to be bearing better fruit without God and faith than some people do *with *God and faith.

And I have no intention of giving up my faith, no intention of turning my back on God, but it would just be nice to have an intellectual explanation for myself right now as to why I should continue, given that it apparently doesn’t make any difference in how people ultimately behave, given that how we treat others is a major part of what matters to God, anyway, as I understand it.

I am so sorry to hear what you have been through. Just remember, those who are Catholic but seem to bear no fruit, as others have said, may be worse than they would have been without God. On the other hand, just because they call themselves Catholic and go through the motions doesn’t mean they really have God in their lives.

All good comes from God. Those who are good to you, even if they are antagonistic towards God, those people do, in fact, have God in them. They just don’t realize it.

You have mentioned that you remember Catholics treating you well. In addition, it seems that the people that are hurting you are family members. Family can hurt us more than anybody, Catholic or not.

To wonder about living the faith, look at people who have truly lived Catholic teachings, like Mother Teresa. The more you live the teachings (not just claim to be Catholic) the more you will bear fruit.

Do go back to praying with your kids. Do enroll your daughter in CCD. It is for their sakes you do this.

Remember that those Catholics who are treating you poorly are NOT living Catholic teachings in how we are to care for others. It is not that they are Catholic that is making them behave poorly, it is that they are not living Catholic teachings.

 

[MrSylvester]

I’ve kept this quote at the forefront for years now, and it does help.

I think I can handle that part of the equation better than the other: that the best behavior I’m seeing right now is from those who have no time for God, have turned their backs on God, who are antagonistic toward Christianity or even religion in general, who live lives diametrically opposed to all the Church teaches. I guess it just seems pointless, right now, to put this energy into my faith, to make the sacrifices, live the lifestyle, etc., when they seem to be bearing better fruit without God and faith than some people do *with *God and faith.

Why you should continue in your faith? Because it is good, because the faith actually did lead people to be nice and convert people to the faith by being nice. This is going to sound mean but to say that all the people who shun and hate Christianity are living better behaviors is like saying a racist is nicer to his friends than those who are not his friends. Being non-religious does not mean being racist obviously but to say that this group is nicer than others just because of a few people is an exaggeration. I go on you tube all the time and troll atheist videos to show them how wrong they are and they almost always reply with the most hateful comments. They call the people debating on the religious side as hypocrites and ugly; they think Hitchens and Dawkins are saints despite their hateful comments and lies; they fancy themselves as being morally superior to those Catholic ‘idiots’ who are idiotic enough to follow religion.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Sounds like you might just be a touch depressed.

That “oh what’s the point” attitude sounds very familiar to me…It’s the hallmark of the beginning of a depressive episode. I call it “channeling Eeyore.”

I might be wrong, but I recommend you see your doctor and talk about what’s happened. Stress depletes our brains of “happy hormones” and if you can replace those quickly, you are not at risk for more depression as your life goes on. Have more than one episode that goes untreated, and your brain will likely be affected permanently.

 

[holyrood]

Mr.Sylvester, I may not have been clear in my posts, but I don’t for a second think that all Catholics are bad and all atheists good. I know plenty of very good Catholics and am quite familiar with and stay in communion with many of the saints. And I know atheists and non-believers who definitely are not nice people.

My only point was it’s sometimes hard to see, intellectually, a reason to maintain and defend faith, when I see so clearly that some people are better and kinder and putting more good into the world without any faith, than are *some *people who supposedly live good Catholic lives.

I do think you have a good point

the faith actually did lead people to be nice

. Of the three people in particular I’m thinking of, two were raised Catholic, and one spent years raising her children Catholic because it was important to her husband. Two of these people were turned off the faith by the behavior of those very Catholics who introduced them to it–my friend’s husband who cheated and lied and my other friend’s father who was also an alcoholic. The third, I’m not sure why he turned away, although he doesn’t seem to have any antagonism toward Catholicism, as much as disagreement, and will go to church when he visits his family, he said, because it’s important to them. He actually has a great deal of admiration for a relative of his who was a Catholic missionary priest, and has expressed his concern that he doesn’t want to damage my faith and values in any way.

Again, I guess I’m struck by the *irony *that someone living a lifestyle that’s complete anathema to Catholic teaching seems more aware of and concerned about not harming my faith than my Catholic parents who, if I were to base my beliefs on their behavior, would have me running as fast as I could from the Church.

However, you may be right that all of these people did get something of their good qualities from Catholicism, in some respect or other.

Juliane, I suspect you’re right. However, I was seeing a counselor a couple of years ago for EMDR (post traumatic stress therapy) when I was more in the middle of all of this, and after several months she pronounced me healthy and well. (And for the most part, I am generally happy with my life–a few events in the last three weeks have brought this question back to the surface.) I also talked to a doctor about 18 months ago about anti-depressants, and after having me fill out the depression checklist, she said I’m not depressed enough to need them. And I have even fewer symptoms now (none or almost none on that checklist).

As I said, it’s just a few recent incidents that have brought this question back to the forefront.

 

[Incomplete]

Two of these people were turned off the faith by the behavior of those very Catholics who introduced them to it-

This is such a good point. Ideally, people would recognize human nature. Ideally, they would stay Catholic (or become Catholic) because of the teachings of the Church. Ideally, they would realize that when people are doing things like cheating on their spouses, they are not acting in accordance with the faith…that saying you are Catholic and actually BEING Catholic can be two different things.

But the reality is that people often form their opinions based on how others act.

Good reminder to BE Catholic, not just say we are.

 

[MrSylvester]

Mr.Sylvester, I may not have been clear in my posts, but I don’t for a second think that all Catholics are bad and all atheists good. I know plenty of very good Catholics and am quite familiar with and stay in communion with many of the saints. And I know atheists and non-believers who definitely are not nice people.

My only point was it’s sometimes hard to see, intellectually, a reason to maintain and defend faith, when I see so clearly that some people are better and kinder and putting more good into the world without any faith, than are *some *people who supposedly live good Catholic lives.

I do think you have a good point . Of the three people in particular I’m thinking of, two were raised Catholic, and one spent years raising her children Catholic because it was important to her husband. Two of these people were turned off the faith by the behavior of those very Catholics who introduced them to it–my friend’s husband who cheated and lied and my other friend’s father who was also an alcoholic. The third, I’m not sure why he turned away, although he doesn’t seem to have any antagonism toward Catholicism, as much as disagreement, and will go to church when he visits his family, he said, because it’s important to them. He actually has a great deal of admiration for a relative of his who was a Catholic missionary priest, and has expressed his concern that he doesn’t want to damage my faith and values in any way.

Again, I guess I’m struck by the *irony *that someone living a lifestyle that’s complete anathema to Catholic teaching seems more aware of and concerned about not harming my faith than my Catholic parents who, if I were to base my beliefs on their behavior, would have me running as fast as I could from the Church.

However, you may be right that all of these people did get something of their good qualities from Catholicism, in some respect or other.

Juliane, I suspect you’re right. However, I was seeing a counselor a couple of years ago for EMDR (post traumatic stress therapy) when I was more in the middle of all of this, and after several months she pronounced me healthy and well. (And for the most part, I am generally happy with my life–a few events in the last three weeks have brought this question back to the surface.) I also talked to a doctor about 18 months ago about anti-depressants, and after having me fill out the depression checklist, she said I’m not depressed enough to need them. And I have even fewer symptoms now (none or almost none on that checklist).

As I said, it’s just a few recent incidents that have brought this question back to the forefront.

Sorry if I sounded mean though rood, its just that these past few months weren’t very good day for me. I’m tired of militant atheists attacking our faith not by giving arguments why it does not make sense but by giving us a litany of fake atrocities as if killing people comes soly from religion. But anyway, Mary Mary be with you.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I used to think that the mean-spirited, holier-than-thou, superiority complex thing was unique to Protestants. As a kid the few Catholics that I knew were all very open, generous, and welcoming people. Two things changed my perspective: One, the things my fiance told me about the Catholics that he grew up around and even went to college with (not his family), and two, many of the people and comments that I have seen on this site.

I cannot stand religious hypocrisy. For starters, if religious groups are going to try to tell the rest of the country how to live, then they have to be ready to be bound by their own rules. And two, most of the important people in my life have been Christians. My mom, my grandmother, and my best friend are all very devout. When people use religion as an excuse to hurt others or hold themselves above the rest they are spitting in the face of something that so many of the people I love hold dear, and that makes me angry. It makes all Christians look like bad people, and that just isn’t fair.

 

[holyrood]

Sorry if I sounded mean though rood, its just that these past few months weren’t very good day for me. I’m tired of militant atheists attacking our faith not by giving arguments why it does not make sense but by giving us a litany of fake atrocities as if killing people comes soly from religion. But anyway, Mary Mary be with you.

No worries. You didn’t sound mean; I just wanted to be sure I wasn’t coming across as one who thinks that, because I agree completely with you. You get all kinds in any group of people, and I myself am fed up with people accusing ‘all’ conservatives, Christians, Catholics, evangelicals, or whatever, of being all of a type.

 

[CallMeCatholic]

As a College student, I can fully relate to this topic. Not necessarily the approach the author gave it, but just how there’s a huge line between a “Catholic” person and a true devout Catholic.

I’ve run into more than enough people at my own University (which is Catholic) that are easily classified as Cafeteria Catholics. I had a conversation with a fellow last night who started off his argument with, "The only reason why I believe in the Catholic Church is because . . . "

I’m astonished at how few actual Catholics there are in this world. I continue to pray for an increase in faith and vocations among the many Catholics that set a good example of the Church for others. For those who don’t set good examples . . .