Catholicsforkerry use St. Augustine

  • Thread starter Thread starter Monicathree
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Monicathree

Guest
How do we refute or deal with what St. Augustine said about life not beginning at conception, per se, when it is used in arguments such as these? I know that the science wasn’t advanced but I don’t know…it bothers me. I can’t believe these people call themselves Catholic…

catholicsforkerry.net/on_abortion.php

peace
 
40.png
Monicathree:
How do we refute or deal with what St. Augustine said about life not beginning at conception, per se, when it is used in arguments such as these? I know that the science wasn’t advanced but I don’t know…it bothers me. I can’t believe these people call themselves Catholic…

catholicsforkerry.net/on_abortion.php

peace
You don’t. Augustine was never a pope, and therefore his personal reflections are not dogmatic, regardless of how revered he is as a Catholic theologian and doctor of the faith. Since the Church has defined as an article of faith that life begins at conception, that is the end of the matter.
 
40.png
Apologia100:
You don’t. Augustine was never a pope, and therefore his personal reflections are not dogmatic, regardless of how revered he is as a Catholic theologian and doctor of the faith. Since the Church has defined as an article of faith that life begins at conception, that is the end of the matter.
Right on. You can’t pull out one Early Church Father and trump Sacred Scripture and Tradition.

The bottom line is this: the article said, Because the moment of “ensoulment” cannot be scientifically verified, it is obligately a matter of personal belief. Well, their position is overthrown because that admits the possibility that it IS ensouled and therefore fully human. This obligates us to condemn abortion by erring on the side that the fetus is fully human. To abort a fetus without knowing if it is ensouled or not is the equivalent of a hunter firing into rustling bushes before discerning what he is shooting at.

Scott
 
We should point out the Pro-Abortion side is willing to lie. They quote SOME of Saint Augustine, but not ALL he said on the subject.

And they are simply being willfully blind to the Church’s historical opposition to abortion. Here’s a short precis:

**Catholic Positions on Abortion

****The Didache
**
“The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child” (*Didache *2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).

**The Letter of Barnabas
**
“The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born” (*Letter of Barnabas *19 [A.D. 74]).

Tertullian

“In our case, a murder being once for all forbidden, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from the other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one; you have the fruit already in its seed” (*Apology *9:8 [A.D. 197]).

“Now we allow that life begins with conception because we contend that the soul also begins from conception; life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does” (ibid., 27).

**Basil the Great

**
“Let her that procures abortion undergo ten years’ penance, whether the embryo were perfectly formed, or not” (First Canonical Letter, canon 2 [A.D. 374]).

“He that kills another with a sword, or hurls an axe at his own wife and kills her, is guilty of willful murder; not he who throws a stone at a dog, and unintentionally kills a man, or who corrects one with a rod, or scourge, in order to reform him, or who kills a man in his own defense, when he only designed to hurt him. But the man, or woman, is a murderer that gives a philtrum, if the man that takes it dies upon it; so are they who take medicines to procure abortion; and so are they who kill on the highway, and rapparees” (ibid., canon 8).

**Saint Augustine of Hippo (354-430)
**Sometimes, indeed, this lustful cruelty, or if you please, cruel lust, resorts to such extravagant methods as to use poisonous drugs to secure barrenness; or else, if unsuccessful in this, to destroy the conceived seed by some means previous to birth, preferring that its offspring should rather perish than receive vitality; or if it was advancing to life within the womb, should be slain before it was born.

-De Nube et Concupiscentia 1.17 (15)

Therefore brothers, you see how perverse they are and hastening wickedness, who are immature, they seek abortion of the conception before the birth; they are those who tell us, “I do not see that which you say must be believed.”
  • Sermon* 126, line 12
Are you to dissolve the conception by aid of drugs? I think to us it is no more lawful to hurt [a child] in process of birth, than one [already] born.

- De exhortatione castitatis 12
 
40.png
Apologia100:
Since the Church has defined as an article of faith that life begins at conception, that is the end of the matter.
I did not realize that life beginning at conception was Dogmatically defined. Can you give me the citation??
thanks
 
Thanks, I am just so saddened and sickened by abortion.

Just a thought, I understand that he was never pope, but then are we picking and choosing in that, we do reference the early fathers for evidence of a lot of things Catholic like the mass, the Holy Eucharist etc. How can we differentiate here? Thanks.

Peace
 
40.png
Monicathree:
Thanks, I am just so saddened and sickened by abortion.

Just a thought, I understand that he was never pope, but then are we picking and choosing in that, we do reference the early fathers for evidence of a lot of things Catholic like the mass, the Holy Eucharist etc. How can we differentiate here? Thanks.

Peace
You have to understand I think that many early writers in the church, particularly theologians and philosophers wrote in an expository way - they exposed their ideas, their critical thinking and expected that others would respond and debate issues. We have the Retractations for example which change the thinking of the original concepts. Every word written was not gospel, it is a testing of the faculty of thought in many cases, ideas that through study and commentary, many of which have stood the test of time and experience, others which have not.
 
40.png
missal_user:
I did not realize that life beginning at conception was Dogmatically defined. Can you give me the citation??
It’s not dogmatically defined. It is scientifically determined. It is not a fact of theology that a fertilized ovum is alive. It is a scientific fact that it is alive. Cherry-picking quotes from a man who lived in the 5th century is a lousy way to score points on a scientific question.

Isn’t it ironic that pro-abortionists who demand that other people stop trying to force religion onto the public must resort to bogus appeals to religious authorities to make their case?

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top