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Winters
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My Czech family accuses Catholics of murdering Jan Huss. Is this true?
Winters
Winters
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jeffreedy789
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Maccabees
Guest
Catholics murdered proto-protestants and protestants, protestansts murdered catholics, protestants murdered other protestants. There is a lot of blame and share of guilt to go around. Christ is perfect Christians are not.
A lot of anti-catholics will point to only the catholic churchs flaws but ignroe the pox in the protestant house. We all need to repent for our forefathers mistakes.
A lot of anti-catholics will point to only the catholic churchs flaws but ignroe the pox in the protestant house. We all need to repent for our forefathers mistakes.
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Todd_Easton
Guest
Jan Hus was not murdered; he was executed.
According to my Webster’s Dictionary:
Murder applies to an unlawful and malicious or premeditated killing.
Execution denotes a killing in accordance with a legally imposed sentence.
According to my Webster’s Dictionary:
Murder applies to an unlawful and malicious or premeditated killing.
Execution denotes a killing in accordance with a legally imposed sentence.
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kepha1
Guest
Jan Huss was turned over to and executed by secular authorities, as heresy in those days was a civil, criminal offense due to the social disruption that it caused.
Jan Huss preached the heresies of Wyclif, and the Wycliff bible is so full of errors, not even Protestants would accept it.
Jan Huss had a trial, unlike the 150,000 “witches” who were burned at the stake by reformist fanatics.
Jan Huss preached the heresies of Wyclif, and the Wycliff bible is so full of errors, not even Protestants would accept it.
Jan Huss had a trial, unlike the 150,000 “witches” who were burned at the stake by reformist fanatics.
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RobedWithLight
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It is the nature of the medieval psyche, not Catholicism per se that led to his execution. The medieval man regarded heresy as crimes worse than theft or homicide since it involves the soul, which the medieval mind valued more, in addition to the fact that heresy is often accompanied by acts of rebellion and violence, which indeed was the case with Huss’ followers, called Hussites. Thus, even Protestants themselves, who regarded Huss as a forerunner, persecuted those whom they called heretics.
Gerry
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Yes, Jan Hus was murdered by Catholics!
It sickens me hear so many deluded, yet well-meaning, Catholics who will go to any lengths to excuse the unexcusable. (That is, of course, we we’ve had so many covered-up instances of clerical sexual abuse.)
Hus was not given a lawful trial, and executed duely. Rather, he was promised, by the Church, safe passage to the Ecuemnical Council of Constance to present (and even make a defense of) his heretical teachings, and once he got there the promise was broken and he was burnt for heresy.
His execution wass unjust, and even our Holy Father has acknowledged it as such. (It was also scandalous to many Catholics of the Middle Ages.)
Blah, blah, blah. So what? That’s not what’s being disucssed or disputed here. The poster asked about a specific historical incident, and in no way implies that this somehow undermines the claims of the Catholic Church.
Get your facts right. Protestants were certainly not responsible for the deaths of 150,000 witches. The best modern estimates are that, from 1400 to 1800, some 30,000 to 50,000 “witches” were executed, by both Catholics and Protestants; and far more by the Catholics (though, in the vast majority of cases, by secular courts, and without Church approval).
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katherine2
Guest
two points.
- Yes our Holy Father has apologied for this act.
- If a legal abortion is murder, then so was the legal killing of Jan Hus.
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
That having been said, I would argue that, under certain conditions, the Catholic State does have a right to persecute, even execute, heretics who choose to publicly profess their belief, and so undermine and destroy the true religion. (Though this should be a last resort, and resorted to only when other punishments [like imprisonment, fines, exiles] would not serve the needs of a society.)
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Hesychios
Guest
I could not argue that any state has the right to execute it’s citizens: Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox or atheist.
I especially would argue against such methods used on religious dissenters and the supposed heretics.
Perhaps I should say the state lacks the moral authority.
Nevertheless, it has happened. But when we justify judicial murder on religious grounds we leave the door open for the state to turn on us as well. No one is safe.
It’s just plain wrong.
One further point, Jan Hus was not nearly as misguided a heretic as has been portrayed. His basic claims were quite reasonable, it was a political murder. The Empire held Bohemia with an iron grip, and actually dominated the church at that time. The church was in a mess, Kings controlled the Cardinals from their own lands and the Papacy was in disarray.
The reputation of Jan Hus was blackened by the individuals determined to destroy him and Czech hopes for independance.
Self-serving Princes and Prelates made a martyr of the church almost everywhere and destroyed the lives of many innocent people. It is good that His Holiness the Pope apologized for this heinous act. If only we could undo the damage that mistake caused!
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RobedWithLight
Guest
I’ve read somewhere he was indeed promised safe conduct to the Council and present his views there, yet he was seized and executed after a “trial”. If this were indeed a travesty of a trial, then it can be termed murder, rather than a mere execution, and in this case it is indeed right that the Pope himself apologize for this sad incident.
No wonder then Jan Hus has become a national hero to the Czech people.
Gerry
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Winters
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Thank you all for your responses. Perhaps the most profound was,
If only we could undo the damage that mistake caused!
Some 500 years later Czechs still moan about it and mostly ignore Catholicism citing this as a reason. I suppose it’s largely a problem of their failure to get over their many “victimhoods”.
But on the other hand, thank God the pope finally apologized. This could have been done 100 years ago or even 50 years ago. Why did it take so long for men (ie popes) in such a holy position in God’s church to initiate the healing process?
Winters
If only we could undo the damage that mistake caused!
Some 500 years later Czechs still moan about it and mostly ignore Catholicism citing this as a reason. I suppose it’s largely a problem of their failure to get over their many “victimhoods”.
But on the other hand, thank God the pope finally apologized. This could have been done 100 years ago or even 50 years ago. Why did it take so long for men (ie popes) in such a holy position in God’s church to initiate the healing process?
Winters
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jeffreedy789
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'Blah, blah, blah. So what? ’
you obviously feel very strongly about this issue. but please remember to post in charity. ‘blah blah blah’ and ‘get your facts straight’ are, i submit, perhaps not the kindest way to make your point.
you obviously feel very strongly about this issue. but please remember to post in charity. ‘blah blah blah’ and ‘get your facts straight’ are, i submit, perhaps not the kindest way to make your point.
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RobedWithLight
Guest
I think it is about time for everyone to leave this sad incident behind and get on with our lives, and learn from it in the process. This in no way diminishes or falsifies the claims, or the truth of the Catholic faith, but of course, we do wish things then could have been done differently.
Gerry
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clmowry
Guest
Not that it takes away responsibility, or makes this situtuation the least bit onerous, but, did the “Church” actually kill him?
I didn’t think that the Church ever had the authority to execute anyone.
i.e. The Chruch could pronounce someone a heritic. If they were executed, burnt at the stake or otherwise, then that was the secular sentence associated with being declared a heretic.
In this specific case would the Emperor have been the person to actually give the execution order?
i.e. If I was declared a heretic today, the US government wouldn’t execute me for it. But presumably if I had been in that particular country at that particular time the same pronouncement by the Chruch would have been a death sentence?
Chuck
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Hesychios
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I agree, sort of.I think it is about time for everyone to leave this sad incident behind and get on with our lives, and learn from it in the process. This in no way diminishes or falsifies the claims, or the truth of the Catholic faith, but of course, we do wish things then could have been done differently.
Gerry
I think the point is “how do we open the hearts and minds of the Czech people?”
It is a practical problem the church must still deal with. I think previous generations in the hierarchy had hoped and tried to leave the incident behind. The Holy Father saw that it didn’t work out very well by ignoring it and addressed it head on.
For a population that is 2/3 Catholic, the Czechs have a notoriously low church attendence rate, little wonder.
But I am ready to put it behind, it’s depressing.
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Winters
Guest
It seems other posters also think it’s time to move on. Perhaps it makes us uncomfortable just like the dozens of popes before JPII (of course they weren’t from a neighboring, slavic country).
I wish it were so easy for me. Please indulge another aspect of this - what is it about the institution of the church that produces such a poor response (or perhaps it would be better to say such a tardy response) to a past sin ?
This clashes so heinously with what one would expect to hear as advice on a like matter through the confessional shade.
Winters
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DominvsVobiscvm
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This is heresy; completely contrary to the Church’s Scripture and Tradition, as authentically interpreted by her Magisterium.
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Hesychios
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Are you calling me a heretic? On what grounds?
Is this how we have intellectual discourse?
Is this how we have intellectual discourse?
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
I never said that you personally were a heretic; merely that the teaching you presented was heretical.
I presume you made your remarks in good faith. I advise you to find out what the Catholic Church really teaches.
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