Catholidism based on Speculation?

[JoeyWarren]

Catholidism based on Speculation?

Originally Posted by justasking4 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*You are doing far more than that. You must assume a number of things without proof. One is that she can hear you and millions of other catholics who pray to her on a daily basis. Two, that dead people can you. Three, even your church admits that it does not really know the nature of the after life i.e. can those who are dead hear and see what is going on in this world. *All of these things that are said by your church is based on speculation and not fact.

 

[Proletarian]

As opposed to the speculative belief that the church was corrupted early in its history? Protestantism is founded upon an unfounded belief that somehow pagan or secular influences destroyed the true faith.

 

[Church_Militant]

You are doing far more than that. You must assume a number of things without proof.

Dead wrong here. There’s a scriptural basis for what Catholics believe.

One is that she can hear you and millions of other catholics who pray to her on a daily basis.

Hebrews 12:1 …the “great cloud of witnesses”. How can one be a witness without seeing and hearing? Do “witnesses” of a race today, (known as “fans”) sit idly by as the race progresses? Why then would the saints in heaven not busily intercede for those of us who are still running our race? Especially since the outcome has such eternal consequences?

Two, that dead people can you.

Three, even your church admits that it does not really know the nature of the after life i.e. can those who are dead hear and see what is going on in this world.

Hebrews 12:1 again. You might also get into this MP3 Bible study on the Communion of Saints. Here’s the basic notes.

All of these things that are said by your church is based on speculation and not fact.

You wish. The fact is that there is plenty of scripture…and facts that support Catholic teachings. Stick around…you might learn a thing or two.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Two, that dead people can you.

He meant "Two, that dead people can’t hear you.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Dead wrong here. There’s a scriptural basis for what Catholics believe.Hebrews 12:1 …the “great cloud of witnesses”. How can one be a witness without seeing and hearing? Do “witnesses” of a race today, (known as “fans”) sit idly by as the race progresses? Why then would the saints in heaven not busily intercede for those of us who are still running our race? Especially since the outcome has such eternal consequences?

It still doesn’t mean we can pray to them. The cloud of witnesses are to be our inspiration. They are the heroes of our faith who lived, suffered and died in their day. Yes they look down on us but they are a witness of their confession to Christ and they are now witness of our performance. Those young wippersnappers who were participating in a car race would act with double intensity if they knew there were some old time racing legends watching them as they drove in the race.

 

[Mannyfit75]

It still doesn’t mean we can pray to them. The cloud of witnesses are to be our inspiration. They are the heroes of our faith who lived, suffered and died in their day. Yes they look down on us but they are a witness of their confession to Christ and they are now witness of our performance. Those young wippersnappers who were participating in a car race would act with double intensity if they knew there were some old time racing legends watching them as they drove in the race.

It doesn’t even said we can’t. Either way, it is pleasing to God that we pray to them.

1 Tim 2 verse 1-5

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3** For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour**, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

In summary, we are all intercessors, inter-mediators in union with Jesus Christ. How often do we pray for one another. The saints though without a body, still have free will in heaven, and can think and act like we do on earth. They can also love. I doubt they would ease to stop loving their families who are still on earth.

 

[Church_Militant]

It still doesn’t mean we can pray to them. The cloud of witnesses are to be our inspiration.

True but more.

They are the heroes of our faith who lived, suffered and died in their day. Yes they look down on us but they are a witness of their confession to Christ and they are now witness of our performance.

So why would they not intercede for the rest of the Body of Christ?

Those young wippersnappers who were participating in a car race would act with double intensity if they knew there were some old time racing legends watching them as they drove in the race.

One thing that I cannot understand, (and was just talking to a buddy of mine about it the other night), is all the n-Cs who tell me that the dead in Christ cannot hear us or intercede for us and yet if they stop by the grave of a departed loved one they will stand there and talk to them.

Obviously they say they believe one thing and actually believe something else because of their practice. I personally think that most humans innately know that the saints (and all the faithful departed) are well aware of us and intercede for us.

 

[Flying_Bison]

Jesus made it pretty clear that those in heaven are not dead. God is God of the living.

So, Catholics do not pray to the dead. We ask those living in heaven to pray for us and with us. We use their earthy lives as examples of how holy, humans can act.

I guess the question for all those against Catholic teaching is “do you think people in heaven are dead”

 

[Nancie_Lew]

True but more.So why would they not intercede for the rest of the Body of Christ?One thing that I cannot understand, (and was just talking to a buddy of mine about it the other night), is all the n-Cs who tell me that the dead in Christ cannot hear us or intercede for us and yet if they stop by the grave of a departed loved one they will stand there and talk to them.

Obviously they say they believe one thing and actually believe something else because of their practice. I personally think that most humans innately know that the saints (and all the faithful departed) are well aware of us and intercede for us.

It’s a metaphor from the Greek games. It has to do with the initial struggle of the new-born church. The witnesses are those who in former ages had already run the race victorously and are now gazing down upon the runners who are being urged to win the race

 

[Nancie_Lew]

It doesn’t even said we can’t. Either way, it is pleasing to God that we pray to them.

1 Tim 2 verse 1-5

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3** For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour**, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

In summary, we are all intercessors, inter-mediators in union with Jesus Christ. How often do we pray for one another. The saints though without a body, still have free will in heaven, and can think and act like we do on earth. They can also love. I doubt they would ease to stop loving their families who are still on earth.

Either way? So my argument is just as valid as yours. Nowhere can the Catholic Church say conclusively that the dead can intercede for us in prayer. Besides how do these passages prove your point ? Nero was at that time ruler of the Roman Empire, under whom Paul had been imprisoned and was soon to be executed. The only thing these passages show is that the prayers of the living are to intercede for bad rulers as well as good.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Either way? So my argument is just as valid as yours. Nowhere can the Catholic Church say conclusively that the dead can intercede for us in prayer. Besides how do these passages prove your point ? Nero was at that time ruler of the Roman Empire, under whom Paul had been imprisoned and was soon to be executed. The only thing these passages show is that the prayers of the living are to intercede for bad rulers as well as good.

We all know that but Paul give instructions to the Christians in the letters he wrote to Timothy, and spiritual advise. Saints who died in Christ does not end upon physical death. Their souls are in heaven.

Their souls have a free will like you and me. Do you think they won’t have any free will? Do you think they will ease to stop loving you? Suppose your love one dies? What do you expect him to do when he gets to heaven?

He will pray to God of course. He also have a free will. His closeness to God, would be helpful if we ask him to pray for us.

Tell me do souls have free will? To love others?

Souls have free will like you and me. So they can and if ask pray for us on our behalf. They cannot do it without God, because like Mary, they will always point to Jesus, “Do whatever He tells you.”

Jesus is never neglected.

Nancie, I ask you to pray and at least try to understand this.

 

[MickC]

You are doing far more than that. You must assume a number of things without proof.

So you say, but without any real knowledge of Catholicism (which you managed to spell wrong to begin with).

One is that she can hear you and millions of other catholics who pray to her on a daily basis.

She??? Her???
I don’t think we’re on the same wave-length here.

Two, that dead people can you.

And this means exactly what?

Three, even your church admits that it does not really know the nature of the after life i.e. can those who are dead hear and see what is going on in this world.

And in what document or teaching is this contained?

None - because you are making a statement that is not based on actual fact.

All of these things that are said by your church is based on speculation and not fact.

No, your objection is based on what you think is Catholic teaching and not on what actually is Catholic teaching. You are the one without facts - not the Church.