Causing Disease in Animals: Are they God's pets?

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While awaiting a response from contacting the National Catholic Bioethics Center (I emailed the address given out on “Catholic Answers Live” many days ago), I thought I would ask a new question here as a followup to my previous thread. Instead of trying to tackle the issue head-on as I did there, here I’d like to pose a question which seems to guide one in obtaining the answer: Are animals to be regarded as God’s pets (i.e. respecting their nature as animals at all times)?

I may soon begin biological experiments giving mice cancer, etc. Trying to justify this practice, I supposed it could be justified as long as I regarded them as mice, rather than as objects (e.g. a glass vial containing a solution). It seemed to me perhaps the sin was objectifying the mouse to be nothing more than a solution – or tissue matrix – for the item of interest. For example, I saw a photograph in a presentation of what the researcher described as “a cost-efficient way to irradiate mice”: The experimenter had basically lined them up in a constricted fashion like a series of vials and shot the radiation beam through them all linearly. In his case, he was giving them brain damage to see how radiation could kill brain cells and affect cognitive function (particularly memory loss). I found the image profane, shocking, offensive: It was very easy to forget they were actually mice, because of their sprawled out limbs rigidly constrained essentially tied to poles – they were, as I said, being treated as nothing more than chemistry vials. (See this image for clarification, from a Google Image search for ‘chemistry vials’.)

So, if we answer the aforementioned question as, “No, they’re here for us to do whatever we want with,” then we can justify basically anything. If we answer that question as, “Yes, but God has given us permission to eat them,” then it seems more difficult to justify damaging them – but that we could proceed with God’s permission after prayerful consideration asking for it with the understanding that we’re respecting His property.

Does this distinction make sense? Am I communicating clearly? It’s one thing to harm animals for science while respecting their nature as animals; it’s another thing to regard them as “useful objects”. Perhaps it is as subtle as the sin that can occur in natural family planning: If you approach it with a contraceptive mentality, then you’re sinning by abusing (misusing) the fertility cycle God gave women, but if you approach it as a physical prayer for God to withhold additional children, but willing to accept them if God deems otherwise, then it’s fine.

So it seems to me now that if you give animals cancer but maintain a certain empathy and respect for the animal as an animal, that it won’t offend God – that what offends God is disregarding the animal’s nature, its needs, and treating it as an object. Do you agree?
 
To be up front with you, I did not respond to your previous poll/thread. I wish I had, though. I have had pets with cancer and each case was unique. You pay what you have to until either you can’t, or until further care would be pointless.

To the question, “Are animals God’s pets?”, I would have to say “no” since God has no need of a pet; however, He has no *need *for us either. We’re here because He loves us. This goes for the remainder of His creation also—animals, plants, rocks, etc. How could you not love something made from the goodness of your heart? I would guess that He sees animals more like His other non-human children, different from us, sure, but loved nonetheless. And, since He loves and respects them, we are bound to do the same. I don’t know if I would consider animals God’s “property” any more than I would consider humans to be His property. So, too, animals are more than just our “property”. Catholics believe that animals have souls in addition to their physical bodies. They are indeed more than just “objects to be used”.

At a few times in my life, I planned on going into medicine or biological research. Knowing now what sorts of things go on in schools and laboratories, I probably would have been living in a spiritual nightmare. I do not envy your position in the slightest. There is a great “disconnect” here, as there is in the consumption of animal food products: the mouse is not a sentient being, but a tissue sample; the steak was not a thinking, feeling creature first, but spontaneously originated in a supermarket lying on a plate of Styrofoam and wrapped in plastic. It makes everyone feel more comfortable in doing their jobs and in eating what they want. But it doesn’t make the attitude correct. The image of the mice, lined up to be irradiated, is repulsive to me and unacceptable, as I believe it is in God’s eyes.

We have to start asking more questions about current animal experimentation. Is this experiment needed at all i.e. has it been done before? What will it tell us that has not been told us already? Do we need a living animal to do the experiment? What will the animal feel? Will the animal suffer? Will what we do be tantamount to torture? Do we have the resources for humane euthanasia? Not easy questions, by any means, but they must be asked. Especially hard are the answers about animal consciousness: Will the animal be aware of what is being done to him/her? Will they be frightened? Inflicting suffering comes in many forms. Fomenting terror is a way that is often disregarded, if it is considered at all.

I probably have not helped you at all, but if you walk away with anything, just remember to evaluate each day’s work on its own. And, of course, every experiment should be preceded by prayerful consideration, as should all our dealings with animals. If your conscience gives sends out even one tiny alert, stop what you’re doing. If you don’t, you’ll regret it all your life.

Good luck getting an answer from the NCBC, but my guess is that any questions regarding animals get slipped to the bottom of the pile. Animal welfare does not yet seem to be high up on the Church’s priority list. Perhaps this will change when the Holy Father comes out with his encyclical on the environment, assuming this covers the subject of wildlife and all animals. I certainly hope so.

BTW, I don’t want to get into a discussion on whether or not NFP is in actuality contraception. You might want to save this topic for another thread. 🙂

God bless you.
 
I don’t find this repulsive at all, in fact I don’t think it matters at all what happens in laboratories. Why? Because animals have nothing to lose. We make a mistake the moment we start thinking that to kill an animal is bad for the animal itself. It is only bad to kill an animal when the killing of that animal would cause detrimental effects to humans. For example, I can not run over my neighbor’s beloved dog on purpose, because that would cause great grief to her, not because that dog’s life has some intrinsic value to it.

I hope I was somewhat useful in helping you tackle this problem.
 
I’m not sure. It seems to me that purposefully causing suffering to a less powerful creature is cruel at best, evil at worst. Isn’t that what the demons do?

But then, it’s all done for a “greater good”, to ultimately help other humans and ease their suffering.

It’s a moral conundrum, and I truly wish our brains were big enough to come up with a solution that didn’t involve harming other lives, even the lives of animals.

(I say this as a complete carnivore, for some reason to me eating animals is different from medical research, as we try to buy only ethically sourced meat, where presumably the animal had a lovely life until they were killed humanely to become food.)
 
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196

2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196
 
I don’t find this repulsive at all, in fact I don’t think it matters at all what happens in laboratories. Why? Because animals have nothing to lose. We make a mistake the moment we start thinking that to kill an animal is bad for the animal itself. It is only bad to kill an animal when the killing of that animal would cause detrimental effects to humans. For example, I can not run over my neighbor’s beloved dog on purpose, because that would cause great grief to her, not because that dog’s life has some intrinsic value to it.

I hope I was somewhat useful in helping you tackle this problem.
Some kids will kill or torture a cat or dog just for the fun of it…that is wrong & I believe a mortal sin!
To experiment on animals in a lab to find a cure for the betterment of man or beast is necessary & can not be sinful.
Even Jesus ate fish & lamb for nourishment . The animals were created for man!
 
Some kids will kill or torture a cat or dog just for the fun of it…that is wrong & I believe a mortal sin!
That’s pretty sick (ha!). It all depends on the intention.
 
I don’t find this repulsive at all, in fact I don’t think it matters at all what happens in laboratories. Why? Because animals have nothing to lose. We make a mistake the moment we start thinking that to kill an animal is bad for the animal itself. It is only bad to kill an animal when the killing of that animal would cause detrimental effects to humans. For example, I can not run over my neighbor’s beloved dog on purpose, because that would cause great grief to her, not because that dog’s life has some intrinsic value to it.

I hope I was somewhat useful in helping you tackle this problem.
Is not this issue causing grief to the OP? It even causes grief to me to read about it. I personally can understand the need for experimentation, however, I can’t see much difference between the kid that kills and tortures animals for fun and the scientist that starts to see mice as tools to be used in his experiment that would cause them great discomfort and pain.
 
It seems to me that our culture today has a tendency to either equate all creation as equal OR they see all other of creation as greater than humans. Both of these are wrong and they have lead to some opinions and laws that are upside down to say the least.

God gave man dominion over plants, animals and all other inanimate things on this Earth. However, man is obliged to temper his dominion with good stewardship. In that is included appropriate treatment of animals and the environment. So while animals are not people. They are not members of our families as any person would be. They still must be treated with respect for their needs and without unnecessarily harming them. Research for the greater good of humans is appropriate. Knowing mistreatment in the process is not.

So treat your test subjects as humanely as possible both in the testing and in their care, make sure that there is validity for using animal subjects before beginning, do your best and don’t forget to thank God for the animals who are contributing to the well-being of His sons and daughters.

On another note, someone mentioned that the Catholic Church believes that animals have souls. That is true. The caveat here is that their souls are not immortal while those of human beings are.
 
I reckon, black sphere, that you are very misguided in your answer.

Consider that God has made all of Creation, and not pointlessly, and because it pleased Him. God saw all of Creation and saw that it was good, and all of this before He created man!

When I treat that which God has made as though it had no intrinsic value, as though it were just as simple to be killed for my amusement as aught else, so long as it doesn’t impact man, I have gone down a dark and sinful path. This sort of reasoning is the reasoning people use to justify masturbation. If it hurts no one, it is not wrong. Likewise, if gunning down a dog won’t hurt any people, it’s not wrong.

This sort of behavior really betrays a gross perversion and disdain for the goodness of God’s creation.

God Himself testifies that animals have intrinsic value, more than just the value imputed to them by man, in the last verse of the last chapter, 4:11 of the book of Jonah.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PTZ.HTM

Here, Jonah is frustrated with God because God will not destroy Nineveh since they have repented. When God grows a plant, its shade for Jonah to rest in, Jonah delights in it, and when it dies the next day, he is angry with God. God rebukes Jonah, emphasizing the value of life.
9But God said to Jonah, “Have you reason to be angry over the plant?” “I have reason to be angry,” Jonah answered, “angry enough to die.”
10 3 Then the LORD said, “You are concerned over the plant which cost you no labor and which you did not raise; it came up in one night and in one night it perished.
11And should I not be concerned over Nineveh, the great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot distinguish their right hand from their left, not to mention the many cattle?”
 
As far as souls go, indeed, all animals and plants have souls according to theologians. Plants have vegetative souls, and animals have sensitive souls. Man, being matter, has a soul as well, but the soul of man is also spirit. No other creature has a spiritual soul. The angels are all spirits and no soul, the animals and plants are all soul and no spirit. I draw this mostly from Sheed’s Theology for Beginners, but I think I’ve noticed it while flipping through the Summa.
 
AS in most Topics on Cath. Ans. Forums…this is how I feel…:banghead:
 
Is not this issue causing grief to the OP? It even causes grief to me to read about it. I personally can understand the need for experimentation, however, I can’t see much difference between the kid that kills and tortures animals for fun and the scientist that starts to see mice as tools to be used in his experiment that would cause them great discomfort and pain.
Even if so, it is because of the misconception. And there is a great difference in scientists’ case: they’re not having fun, not malicious kind of fun that is.

And ‘great discomfort and pain’ doesn’t really change anything. A life span of a typical lab mouse is one week let’s say. During this time a scientist conducts some tests on it causing ‘great discomfort and pain’ (an hour per day, for example). The end result is aprox 7 hours of discomfort. For the rest of the time same mouse got comfort and happiness. It seems that it had a pretty good life after all.
 
Is not this issue causing grief to the OP? It even causes grief to me to read about it. I personally can understand the need for experimentation, however, I can’t see much difference between the kid that kills and tortures animals for fun and the scientist that starts to see mice as tools to be used in his experiment that would cause them great discomfort and pain.
Are you living in the real world???

Kid who kills animals for fun is = equal to a scientist trying to find a cure for cancer by experimenting on mice :confused: :rolleyes:

So, a rapist murderer is = equal to a soldier who kills while defending his country! WOW :eek:
 
Ok, let’s take it down a notch. No reason to imply a sister in Christ is living outside of reality. What is the greater concern? Ignorance of Church teaching, or mockery towards those we know we ought to be meek with?

Of course you are right in terms of doctrine. There is a large difference between the act of killing a thing for amusement, and killing it for the advancement of humanity. An action is evil if any one of its three constituents are evil: its objective nature, its intent or aim, and its circumstances (correct me here if I’m off, but that’s about how I understand it).

So working towards a cure for cancer is a legitimate use, in my understanding, of the life of an animal, so long as it is not terribly inhumane.

Edit to avoid another post:
10gr8kids has answered most of this topic with the posting of the CCC regarding the subject. I would recommend all posts related to the subject bear these passages of the CCC in mind before they are made.
 
I reckon, black sphere, that you are very misguided in your answer.

Consider that God has made all of Creation, and not pointlessly, and because it pleased Him. God saw all of Creation and saw that it was good, and all of this before He created man!

When I treat that which God has made as though it had no intrinsic value, as though it were just as simple to be killed for my amusement as aught else, so long as it doesn’t impact man, I have gone down a dark and sinful path. This sort of reasoning is the reasoning people use to justify masturbation. If it hurts no one, it is not wrong. Likewise, if gunning down a dog won’t hurt any people, it’s not wrong.

This sort of behavior really betrays a gross perversion and disdain for the goodness of God’s creation.

God Himself testifies that animals have intrinsic value, more than just the value imputed to them by man, in the last verse of the last chapter, 4:11 of the book of Jonah.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PTZ.HTM

Here, Jonah is frustrated with God because God will not destroy Nineveh since they have repented. When God grows a plant, its shade for Jonah to rest in, Jonah delights in it, and when it dies the next day, he is angry with God. God rebukes Jonah, emphasizing the value of life.
It appears that you are misguided by your emotions. I value logic.

Somehow you managed to draw a conclusion that I justify needless hurting of animals. Never. Scientific experiments are not needless. Does Church list guidelines on how to properly conduct an experiment? If it is for the advancement of scientific knowledge, it’s permissible, whatever the cost of animals.
 
I don’t find this repulsive at all, in fact I don’t think it matters at all what happens in laboratories. Why? Because animals have nothing to lose. We make a mistake the moment we start thinking that to kill an animal is bad for the animal itself. It is only bad to kill an animal when the killing of that animal would cause detrimental effects to humans. For example, I can not run over my neighbor’s beloved dog on purpose, because that would cause great grief to her, not because that dog’s life has some intrinsic value to it.

I hope I was somewhat useful in helping you tackle this problem.
so if its not somebody’s pet or livestock it is “okay” to go out and slaughter animals if you think it’s fun, or to inflict as much torture on any animal not connected with any person is okay because animals do not matter at all? Only people matter? I find this a very egotistical and very ugly opinion and evil opinion.
 
Even if so, it is because of the misconception. And there is a great difference in scientists’ case: they’re not having fun, not malicious kind of fun that is.

And ‘great discomfort and pain’ doesn’t really change anything. A life span of a typical lab mouse is one week let’s say. During this time a scientist conducts some tests on it causing ‘great discomfort and pain’ (an hour per day, for example). The end result is aprox 7 hours of discomfort. For the rest of the time same mouse got comfort and happiness. It seems that it had a pretty good life after all.
Okay, this is a little more humane than your last post where you stated, “I don’t care about what happens in laboratories.” I’m not against certain sorts of testing but please remember that certain animals of the higher species are sentient and that they do experience pain. So to simply state that you don’t care whatever is a rather ugly sentiment. It’s not one you would expect to see from a truly generous and humane person. Which you may very well be, I don’t know you, I hope that you are just momentarily mis-analyzing things.
 
Okay, this is a little more humane than your last post where you stated, “I don’t care about what happens in laboratories.” I’m not against certain sorts of testing but please remember that certain animals of the higher species are sentient and that they do experience pain. So to simply state that you don’t care whatever is a rather ugly sentiment. It’s not one you would expect to see from a truly generous and humane person. Which you may very well be, I don’t know you, I hope that you are just momentarily mis-analyzing things.
Of course they can feel pain. I don’t think causing pain during testing is bad, however. I care about animals as much as not to kill them without purpose. How is that inhumane? What would be considered humane in your view?
 
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