Celsus

[RobedWithLight]

A second century pagan named Celsus once attacked Christianity. In summary, he said it this way.

*Through Moses, God said, "Kill your enemies, even their wives*

• and little ones.*
• Through Jesus, God said, ‘Love your enemies.’*
• Who taught falsely, Moses or Jesus? Or did God change his *
• mind?*
  

                  (Origen contra Celsus Book VII, chapter XVIII)

If you were a Christian and were alive then, **how **would you refute him ?

Your insights are most welcome.

Gerry

 

[The_Barrister]

I’ll let Origen reply:

Celsus, with all his boasts of universal knowledge, has here fallen into the most vulgar of errors, in supposing that in the law and the prophets there is not a meaning deeper than that afforded by a literal rendering of the words. He does not see how manifestly incredible it is that worldly riches should be promised to those who lead upright lives, when it is a matter of common observation that the best of men have lived in extreme poverty. Indeed, the prophets themselves, who for the purity of their lives received the Divine Spirit, “wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented: they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.” For, as the Psalmist, says, “many are the afflictions of the righteous.” If Celsus had read the writings of Moses, he would, I daresay, have supposed that when it is said to him who kept the law, “Thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou thyself shalt not borrow,” the promise is made to the just man, that his temporal riches should be so abundant, that he would be able to lend not only to the Jews, not only to two or three nations, but “to many nations.” What, then, must have been the wealth which the just man received according to the law for his righteousness, if he could lend to many nations? And must we not suppose also, in accordance with this interpretation, that the just man would never borrow anything? For it is written, “and thou shalt thyself borrow nothing.” Did then that nation remain for so long a period attached to the religion which was taught by Moses, whilst, according to the supposition of Celsus, they saw themselves so grievously deceived by that lawgiver? For nowhere is it said of any one that he was so rich as to lend to many nations. It is not to be believed that they would have fought so zealously in defence of a law whose promises had proved glaringly false, if they understood them in the sense which Celsus gives to them. And if any one should say that the sins which are recorded to have been committed by the people are a proof that they despised the law, doubtless from the feeling that they had been deceived by it, we may reply that we have only to read the history of the times in order to find it shown that the whole people, after having done that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, returned afterwards to their duty, and to the religion prescribed by the law.

 

[Steven_Merten]

RobedWithLight:

A second century pagan named Celsus once attacked Christianity. In summary, he said it this way.

Through Moses, God said, "Kill your enemies, even their wives
and little ones.

Through Jesus, God said, ‘Love your enemies.’

*Who taught falsely, Moses or Jesus? Or did God change his *
mind?

(Origen contra Celsus Book VII, chapter XVIII)

If you were a Christian and were alive then, **how **would you refute him ?

Your insights are most welcome.

Gerry

Hello Gerry,

Jesus says, “love your enemies” in another area Jesus says that when His enemy is leading little ones who believes in Him astray, it would be better if they had a mill stone tied around their neck and was drown in the sea. Upon Judgement day, with the Spiritual “sword of His mouth”, Jesus will spiritually kill His enemies who did not produce the fruit of the Kingdom and did not repent.

Moses came down Mt. Sini with the commandments to love your neighbor as yourself, Love God with all your heart, Thou Shalt Not Kill, and, take no revenge. When Moses got to the bottom of Mt. Sini, he killed 3000 of his countrymen (whom he was commanded to love) who were trying to lead the body of Israelites astray. Then Moses goes back up Mt Sini. Moses offers up his eternal life in atonement if God will only forgive his enemies. Similiar to Jesus, Moses “turns the other cheek” to his countrymen who have hated him. www.geocities.com/athens/forum/3325/stones2.html

In other words sometimes Moses, who obeys the command to love and take no revenge against his countrymen, kills his countrymen to protect the body of people. Sometimes Jesus, who also teaches Moses commandments of love and take no revenge in your heart, commands His Church to cut off and cast into Gehenna that portion of Her body which causes Her harm. With the words from His mouth “I hold sins bound” on judgement day, Jesus will cause massively more death and destruction than all the wars in human history.

God has not changed. Moses and Jesus do not disagree.

When I was younger and faced with the draft and killing in war, I desperately searched for Jesus will on when to kill. Church leaders seemed to talk about “lesser of two evils” defiance to the will of Jesus in a “just war” theory. I said, if “just war” is truly evil defiance to Jesus’ will, then I cannot obey this Church doctrine. Nor can I accept the Vatican using violence to protect the Pope and Vatican treasures if this is a “lesser of two evils” defiance to the will of my Lord and God, Jesus Christ.

I have spent tens of thousands of hours in prayer, scriptural study and contemplation seeking out Jesus will on when to kill to protect the innocent. Jesus is not the anti Moses pacifist that many pacifist Church leaders make him out to be. I hope that you will visit Throwing Stones
so we can discuss Jesus will on when to kill.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[RobedWithLight]

Thank you for your gracious and well-stated replies.

Peace and God bless

Gerry