Centering Prayer vs. Mindfulness, Hesychasm, etc

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Anesti33

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Hi there!

I’m putting this in Non-Catholic Religions but of course I’d like the Catholic perspective on why we choose Centering Prayer over the other forms of contemplation or meditation that are offered by the more… Eastern religions.

I have been practicing Centering Prayer, and so far I have found the practitioners and gurus quite orthodox and simple in their belief that this form of contemplation can help us access the Presence of God in a profound, meaningful, and lasting way. It has already made an impact on my life, as I struggle with bipolar disorder, healing from abuse, anxiety, and all the usual stress of day-to-day life in pandemic times.

I would like to hear from people who know more about these forms of contemplation, their lived experience, and the benefits that can be derived from sincere practice.
 
I would like to hear from people who know more about these forms of contemplation, their lived experience, and the benefits that can be derived from sincere practice.
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So i don’t engage in the practice of Centering, but i have researched the topic along with Mindfulness and Hesychasm along with a lot of other mental disciplines. I’ve also formally investigated Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction as part of clinical/epidemiological studies.

I think a major issue that most Catholics (and heck most religious people in general) wouldn’t grasp is to question is there anything “religious” at all about certain forms of meditation.

Part of this is a cultural thing i suppose - i’m Asian so “the mysterious East” trope that gets bandied about when Americans and Europeans start getting into eastern philosophies gets a lot of :roll_eyes: from family, friends, etc.

First point to make: Christians tend to use the words “Meditation” and “Contemplation” in the opposite manner as it is thought over by Buddhists, Hindus, Daoists, and Jains to name a few.

Their Meditation → is Our Contemplation
Our Meditation → Is their Meditation

So… using the Christian conception for a second:

1.) Meditation is discursive, a fancy way of saying disciplined directed thinking about a chosen topic. To meditate is to ruminate over a topic, like via Lectio Divinia - over a passage in Scripture or another work.

Translators of Pali/Sanskrit used the word “Meditation” to describe what the Buddhists do when they attempt to reach a stage of thought beyond words or images.

2.) Contemplation is intuitive, a quiet opening of the heart to God without the use of visualization or images.

Translators used the word “Contemplation” to describe what the Buddhists would consider to be focusing the mind on a set of concepts, such as an image be it a real mandala or a mental image of Buddha or Bodhisattva that has been minutely described by their tradition.

“Centering” would fall under what we would call Contemplative prayer, and has been a large part of the tradition. Its ultimately a “pure technique” in the sense that it doesn’t really require a specific belief system to derive, on face of it, psychological and physiological benefit.

And that’s where the trouble starts really for some people… There’s a whole debate that’s raged for years about how “Christian” Centering prayer is really Christian or not and if its just some New Age-y import from an Eastern Religion.
 
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What few detractors realize, is that many of those “Eastern Religions” can’t really lay claim to the whole “corpus” of mental techniques that have come to be included within their religion.

To be sure, there would undoubtedly be some visualization and contemplative techniques that would be out of bounds for any person who professed a faith outside of Buddhism for instance. The Tibetan’s have a technique of visualizing an Yidam, or meditational deity.

But some simple techniques - such as counting your breathe, really have more of a cultural origin (specifically in India) than something that was specifically taught by the Buddha, or Adi Shankara, or Mahavira. In other words, certain techniques are shared by religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism not because they were invented by one of those religions and then copied by the others - rather they were drawing off a tradition of “meditational” experimentation that probably pre-dated all 3.

Hesychasm is our Eastern Orthodox brothers in Faith’s patrimony. To be as blunt as possible, it won’t function properly if you don’t have faith in Jesus Christ. If Mindfulness and Centering can be seen as something a-religious (a point that the Buddhists themselves chew over, as they try to prevent the erosion of their own traditions in the face of Western Commercialism and New Agey-ness → Are There Different Types of Mindfulness Meditation? - Tricycle), Hesychasm is distinctly Christian.

Of course… there are some who believes Hesychasm is a corrupt practice that entered externally into Christianity (cue incredibly long debates).

I hope that was helpful to you, and perhaps maybe a practitioner of Hesychasm will step up from the Eastern Catholic boards and describe a bit more (as i feel it more appropriate for someone who engages in it to take the regins of the conversation than rather continue on this topic from my rather…aloof academic perspective on the matter).
 
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Anesti33 said:
and so far I have found the practitioners and gurus quite orthodox and simple in their belief that this form of contemplation can help us access the Presence of God in a profound, meaningful, and lasting way.
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It has already been written and said many times here, sorry but there are milions of threads on CAF, there are great articles on Catholic Answers and some other places on internet. You can also find personal experience of those who did it.
Some people support it and other don’t
I don’t support Centering prayer and cannot see connection with Christian meditation and contemplation. Same is with mindfulness.

Hesychasm =/= Centering prayer. Hesychasm also shouldn’t be done without spiritual direction.







 
The reason I mention Hesychasm is because the Centering Prayer controversy calls to mind the Palamist controversy and the Essence-Energies Distinction problems.
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To a degree it is kind of a modern iteration of the Hesychasm issue in the broad sense that its deemed “outside” Christianity, even by its original Orthodox detractors.

The reason why its different though, is because whereas Hesychasm was originally seen by some as a sort of “heretical outcome” of some monastic practices codified by a theologian…its still a “homegrown” Western heretical outcome, Centering shares something in common with something deriving from a different culture.

And here’s the tightrope.

1.) There are some people who engage in religion (any religion really) who feel that anything that comes outside of the religion must be tainted somehow. And if its coming from a foreign culture, the ability to raises the alarm bells in their head because - they have no point of reference.

2.) There are some people who engage in religion (any religion really) who feel reverse, they are Syncretists who are trying to take strands from everything and well… “morph” their religions to fit a particular viewpoint.

I don’t really subscribe to either of the two options, because i think the are conceiving of the issue incorrectly (and incidentally feeding off each other’s viewpoint - hence the incessant fighting over the matter).

Let me draw an analogy:

So our religion has a strong prohibition against Occult practices.

So someone from Group 1 would say something like “if its associated with the Occult, i want nothing to do with it. Astrology is obviously an occult practice, anything associated with it is un-Christian.”

Someone from Group 2 would say “oh maybe there’s some underlying truth and that we should for instance, accept Celestial Intelligences that the Neo-platonic Philosopher Proclus spoke about as Angels.”

The Thing I point Out:

Group 1 is Wrong.

Yes Astrology is of course outside the bounds of being a faithful catholic. But those who would say “everything associated with it is demonic” fail to realize that astronomy, the scientific study of the universe, stars, and planets, has its origins grounded into astrological practice.

The reason why the Egyptians, Babylonians, and Mayans got really good at astronomy was because there was a very strong religious motivation. Does that make their belief systems correct? - No. But does that cancel out the utility of their Astronomical findings? Of course not.

The Processes work, its just that the End Goal (like predicting the future) is Faulty.

Same analogy can be made with Alchemy. Alchemy has a lot of Spiritual ideas embedded into it…that don’t work. But their Processes became the Roots of Chemistry.

However - Group 2 is also just as wrong.

Because they are attempting to accept ideas (attached to those underlying processes) that are at odds with established doctrinal faith.
 
Since the Catholic Church teaches that there are elements of light in all religions, perhaps the element of light in Buddhist Mindfulness is the stillness of the mind and the welcoming of a more transcendent Presence than that which can be sensed in normal brain operations.
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Ah you see i think this is where you are going to get in trouble with Group 1. It sounds like you are making a Theological/Philosophical Statement…which will undoubtedly attract people to argue the point.
 
I fully expected trouble from Group 1, and I have been in Group 1 plenty of times, believe you me. I just don’t think it holds water when held up to the light of Truth.

I accept that there may be “dangers” and side effects associated with any spiritual medicine. I will not allow that to stop me from taking the proper cure for what ails me. I am under the authority of my pastor, bishop, and Rome, and my parents, not Catholic Answers, not Catholic Culture, not forumers who may wish to save me from myself or the demons lurking under my bed.
 
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I fully expected trouble from Group 1, and I have been in Group 1 plenty of times, believe you me. I just don’t think it holds water when held up to the light of Truth.
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You have to understand though, what Group 1 does is completely natural. Step away from religion for a second, and look and how people social organize into tribes, nation states, sports teams, etc. Humans have a survival mechanism to have a very strong instinct to distrust something thats foreign or strange.

That and Group 1 is generally looking to have someone with a level of authority and learning to give the thumbs-up to something.

At the very beginnings of our Church, there was a massive debate held about the relationship of Graeco-Roman culture to Christianity. Some Christian groups refused to read any of the classical works of the Greeks and Romans, following Tertullian and questioning “What is Athens to Jerusalem?”

We also had a lot of heretical sects doing the Group 2 - trying to fit our Lord into some strange Neo-platonic or Pagan Schema and really butchering the whole point of the Resurrection.

It literally took our most learned thinkers, the people who became our Church Fathers, to sit down and evaluate everything from top to bottom.

What was out of bounds, they declared as heresy. At the same time, they could still find value in say the writings of the philosopher Epictetus - even though he was a Stoic and not a Christian (and some in fact prayed for Epictetus that the Lord may show mercy).
 
Anesti33 said:
I think it is a fallacy to say “Centering Prayer smells like Eastern Religions so it must be BAD AND DEMONIC!” Since the Catholic Church teaches that there are elements of light in all religions, perhaps the element of light in Buddhist Mindfulness is the stillness of the mind and the welcoming of a more transcendent Presence than that which can be sensed in normal brain operations.
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I think if you read the Catholic Answers article on mindfulness, which is right above your posting, you will find it is much more thoughtful than condemning.
 
Anesti33 said:
I think it is a fallacy to say “Centering Prayer smells like Eastern Religions so it must be BAD AND DEMONIC!”
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Nobody said that but I am not gonna argue with you. You asked opinions you got them.

Since you say that your pastor and your confessor support you in those methods of prayer why do you ask about it here?
 
I think if you read the Catholic Answers article on mindfulness, which is right above your posting, you will find it is much more thoughtful than condemning.
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The article actually gives a lot of good points.

One of the major sticking points would probably be this:
condemn the popular belief that mindfulness is simply a secular, therapeutic technique: “Many times these meditation techniques, such as mindfulness, try to hide their religious origin and spread in movements that could be gathered under the New Age denomination, [inasmuch as] they are proposed [as an] alternative to the Christian faith” (footnote 8).
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The whole paragraph encompasses Group 1 fears and legitimate concerns.

The issue i would point out is the concern with “religious origin”. Because it precisely mirrors the issues i spoke about above regarding Alchemy and Astrology. No self-respecting scientist subscribes to Alchemical or Astrological ideas, and yet they utilize the techniques those people invented for purposes that would seem very alien to the originators.

Modern science is built on techniques that did have a “religious origin” - they just threw out all the metaphysical philosophy. Its like if someone invented a Net to catch Air. Its a laughable task (a Net has holes in it), but you can use it to catch Fish per say.

What i find funny is while the Bishops are concerned that the meditational techniques might be some backdoor to weird religious ideas (and hey, they have a legitimate point at that - when you go New Age you go all the way), many of the religions that make use of such practices (such as Buddhism) might actually agree with them.

The article i linked above speaks about how Buddhists are trying to make a differentiation between what they mean by “mindfulness” and what a New Agey or Secular type might mean by Mindfulness. Part of this is because by virtue of falling into the New Age Current or falling into a more hard-nosed Materialist Science spectrum - the Definition gets moved.

How to put this in a way that most people on the board would understand…

This is the equivalent of taking the Eucharistic Celebration and making it… just Dinner.

Does it feed you? - Sure. So yeah its “a meal”.

But if you treated it like dinner, wouldn’t you be missing out on some critical/fundamental aspects of what we take it to mean as Christians? - Of Course.

So you take a Fundamental Pathway for Enlightenment, a focal point of their belief system and then you…use it to regulate blood pressure. 😅

Can you see why they might be…not so much miffed… but concerned that somethings getting lost?

No different from when Astronomers laughed at Astrologists and said, “Keep your silly beliefs, i’m just goign to use your mathematical calculations to do something different.”
Essentially, mindfulness is superfluous in the development of our relationship with God
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Now that on the other hand, is a Correct Statement. Its probably a much better argument to make.
 
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Inbonum said:
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Anesti33:
I think it is a fallacy to say “Centering Prayer smells like Eastern Religions so it must be BAD AND DEMONIC!”
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Nobody said that but I am not gonna argue with you. You asked opinions you got them.

Since you say that your pastor and your confessor support you in those methods of prayer why do you ask about it here?
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Because I would enjoy hearing testimonals and explanations from practitioners and people who have more familiarity and experience with it than I do.

My pastor, confessor, and parents have authority over me. Catholic Answers, approved by a different bishop, has good opinions and nice advice which I have found to often be correct. Therefore I take it under advisement, but they are unable to exercise authority over me, and I am unable to accept their opinions as anything more than that.


I viewed this video in its entirety. I have always been a fan of Thomas Merton and his adventuresome journey through the world of the Trappists and the mysterious Orient, where he passed away. Keating I find to be quite eloquent and engaging, and he espouses orthodox views (not necessarily meshing with the rigid Traditionalist view of orthodoxy, but in keeping with Sacred Scripture, the Church Fathers, and continuity with ancient traditions such as this.)

In the video, Keating claims that the contemplative’s goal isn’t to make more Christians, but to bring everyone into “communion with God”, however that may look at any given time and place. It is a very intriguing view, that might rankle Traditionalists and Eastern Orthodox, who say that all the world must be baptized with Water and the Spirit to be saved.

I am well aware that there are other threads and other websites with viewpoints on Centering Prayer and contemplative prayer. I myself have been steeped in Carmelite tradition for several years now, but I never understood exactly what contemplation truly is, much less experienced it. This thread shall be partly my own personal experience on the journey of contemplation, according to whatever “gurus” I find helpful along the way. Thank you.
 
Anesti33 said:
I myself have been steeped in Carmelite tradition for several years now, but I never understood exactly what contemplation truly is, much less experienced it.
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Contemplation is something we cannot do on our own. There is no any technique that can “do” contemplation.
I think it is big problem when people think that contemplation is something we can achieve on our own. God gives gift of contemplation to whom He wants to and all our methods and techniques are useless if He doesn’t give us. We cannot force God to give us that gift.
To me personally God didn’t give gift of contemplation.
Anesti33 said:
This thread shall be partly my own personal experience on the journey of contemplation, according to whatever “gurus” I find helpful along the way.
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There is no “guru” who can give you contemplation. We cannot achieve contemplation on our own, by our methods.
It is not emptyness but fullness.

Catechism of Catholic Church on prayer - especially contemplation
2713 Contemplative prayer is the simplest expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gift, a grace; it can be accepted only in humility and poverty. Contemplative prayer is a covenant relationship established by God within our hearts. 9 Contemplative prayer is a communion in which the Holy Trinity conforms man, the image of God, “to his likeness.”
2714 Contemplative prayer is also the pre-eminently intense time of prayer. In it the Father strengthens our inner being with power through his Spirit “that Christ may dwell in [our] hearts through faith” and we may be "grounded in love."10
2715 Contemplation is a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus. “I look at him and he looks at me”: this is what a certain peasant of Ars in the time of his holy curé used to say while praying before the tabernacle. This focus on Jesus is a renunciation of self. His gaze purifies our heart; the light of the countenance of Jesus illumines the eyes of our heart and teaches us to see everything in the light of his truth and his compassion for all men. Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the “interior knowledge of our Lord,” the more to love him and follow him.11
2716 Contemplative prayer is hearing the Word of God. Far from being passive, such attentiveness is the obedience of faith, the unconditional acceptance of a servant, and the loving commitment of a child. It participates in the “Yes” of the Son become servant and the Fiat of God’s lowly handmaid.
2717 Contemplative prayer is silence , the "symbol of the world to come"12 or "silent love."13 Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the “outer” man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.
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This could also be very helpful

 
Inbonum said:
Contemplation is something we cannot do on our own. There is no any technique that can “do” contemplation.
I think it is big problem when people think that contemplation is something we can achieve on our own. God gives gift of contemplation to whom He wants to and all our methods and techniques are useless if He doesn’t give us. We cannot force God to give us that gift.
To me personally God didn’t give gift of contemplation.
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Yes, that’s exactly what I meant. Whatever gave you the idea that I believed I could do it myself? I am no Pelagian.
Inbonum said:
It is not emptyness but fullness.
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Yes, I fully understand that. What gave you the idea that I believe it is “emptiness”? That is a faulty concept. I am no heretic.
 
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Why don’t I just read St. John of the Cross’ own opinion from the pen in his hand, and it won’t fall short at all? I have his Collected Works right next to my monitor.
 
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Maybe that would be the best for understanding contemplation, he is an expert!
 
I mentioned my practice to the Carmelite sister at my parish and she was very pleased to hear it.

I have never craved prayer like I crave this contemplation. This actually reminds me of several years ago, when I first discovered the Low Mass EF. I had tried Byzantine and Protestant services and once I experienced Low Mass, I realized a contemplation that I had never felt in all the OFs I had attended throughout my natural life. The OF always struct me as busy and hectic and the calisthenics of “stand up, sit down, kneel, now sit now stand again, now respond to this and that and the other thing” can wear you down! The silence of the Low Mass, and of contemplative Centering Prayer, is profound, and can pervade my consciousness until it is filled with the Presence like no human words could ever do.

My only hope is that I can persevere, and continue to practice this and welcome God’s presence into my being, that I never forsake or neglect Him, because he shall never forsake nor neglect us.
 
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