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WilT
Guest
The just war theory. This article really makes one think about going or not going into war. I’ll have to pray on it more. ncronline.org/blogs/making-difference/challenging-just-war-theory
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Beryllos
Guest
Which specific points of the article do you dispute? Where does it go against the Catechism or the teachings of the Church?
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freeRadical
Guest
Just War Doctrine is one of two main areas where I am in disagreement with the Church and, thus, prevents me from being in full communion with the Church.
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Greekrhetoric
Guest
Practically speaking, How does One (a nation or nations) stop ISIS? Should they be stopped? What nonviolent ways could they be stopped?
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christus_vincit
Guest
The idea that it is impossible for the qualifications of a “just war” to be met in light of modern weapons and technology is ridiculous. Justice can always be served, we just need to be more careful in how we go about it. Not to mention, if a war truly is “just”, then justice demands it be fought. Otherwise an injustice is being committed by omission. Pacifism is great. But no one is a pacifist when someone breaks into their home and threatens their wife and kids. What would the author of the article do in such a scenario? Isn’t that just an example of a “micro war”? In such a situation one has not only the right to protect his family, but the obligation to do so.
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St_Francis
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I disagree with the author of the article because he completelt misses the point of the Early Christians’ avoidance of violence and even Christ’s admonition to St Peter: that one ought not take up arms *against legitimate authority. *
St Peter used his sword to attack the Roman soldiers while they were doing their job. The martyrs were martryed by people representing or being the legitimate authority.
Christ did not condemn the Centurion for his work of being a commander in the military, in fact, He used it as an analogy when describing the Centurion’s faith.
God Himself apparently approved of various military endeavors, such as Constantine’s and the Battle of Loreto.
Yes, we should trust God to do things, bit sometimes what He does is send one or more people.
St Peter used his sword to attack the Roman soldiers while they were doing their job. The martyrs were martryed by people representing or being the legitimate authority.
Christ did not condemn the Centurion for his work of being a commander in the military, in fact, He used it as an analogy when describing the Centurion’s faith.
God Himself apparently approved of various military endeavors, such as Constantine’s and the Battle of Loreto.
Yes, we should trust God to do things, bit sometimes what He does is send one or more people.
The overall article itself. They’re essentially citing specific wars (especially Iraq), where it is perfectly permissible to dispute whether the criterion for a just war were met. They have actually not addressed each individual criteria for a just war and presented their counter-arguments as to why those criteria are not valid. They just made a premise that a just war is not possible but actually did not offer any proofs against the criteria laid down by the Church.
And of course their concept of a “nonviolent” Jesus is just out there. Jesus himself used a weapon, and ordered his disciples to buy a sword.
The quotes they cited from the Popes simply express the fact that there should be no war, which is the case. Every Christian, and indeed, every human being should work towards the elimination of war. But the fact remains that there are unjust aggressors that need to be repelled. But they didn’t even bother to address that inconvenient fact of modern life. The fact remains that if force is not used against ISIS, our brothers and sisters in Iraq will be exterminated brutally. No “dialogue” will ever convert these monsters, and while we pray for their conversion, we also have to use force to stop them.
The Catechism, is a magisterial document and as such carries more weight than that rag called the National “Catholic” Reporter.
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St_Francis
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In fact, St Thomas Aquinas says that not helping one’s neighbor when violence is necessary shows one to be a bit of a jerk:
Reply to Objection 1. Not to resist evil may be understood in two ways. First, in the sense of forgiving the wrong done to oneself, and thus it may pertain to perfection, when it is expedient to act thus for the spiritual welfare of others. *Secondly, in the sense of tolerating patiently the wrongs done to others: and this pertains to imperfection, or even to vice, *if one be able to resist the wrongdoer in a becoming manner. **Hence Ambrose says (De Offic. i, 27): “The courage whereby a man in battle defends his country against barbarians, or protects the weak at home, or his friends against robbers is full of justice”: even so our Lord says in the passage quoted [Luke 6:30 “Of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again”; Cf. Matthew 5:40, " . . . thy goods, ask them not again." If, however, a man were not to demand the return of that which belongs to another, he would sin if it were his business to do so: for it is praiseworthy to give away one’s own, but not another’s property. And much less should the things of God be neglected, for as Chrysostom [Hom. v in Matth. in the Opus Imperfectum, falsely ascribed to St. John Chrysostom] says, “it is most wicked to overlook the wrongs done to God.”
Summa Theologica: II, II, Q 188, 3
Reply to Objection 1. Not to resist evil may be understood in two ways. First, in the sense of forgiving the wrong done to oneself, and thus it may pertain to perfection, when it is expedient to act thus for the spiritual welfare of others. *Secondly, in the sense of tolerating patiently the wrongs done to others: and this pertains to imperfection, or even to vice, *if one be able to resist the wrongdoer in a becoming manner. **Hence Ambrose says (De Offic. i, 27): “The courage whereby a man in battle defends his country against barbarians, or protects the weak at home, or his friends against robbers is full of justice”: even so our Lord says in the passage quoted [Luke 6:30 “Of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again”; Cf. Matthew 5:40, " . . . thy goods, ask them not again." If, however, a man were not to demand the return of that which belongs to another, he would sin if it were his business to do so: for it is praiseworthy to give away one’s own, but not another’s property. And much less should the things of God be neglected, for as Chrysostom [Hom. v in Matth. in the Opus Imperfectum, falsely ascribed to St. John Chrysostom] says, “it is most wicked to overlook the wrongs done to God.”
Summa Theologica: II, II, Q 188, 3
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Beryllos
Guest
Give me examples of recent wars which were carried out justly. Even better if the objectives were met and peace and prosperity were restored. I am having a hard time thinking of one.
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Lost_Wanderer
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Define ‘recent.’
Sometimes when I see threads that debate the moral legitimacy of war, people use ‘recent’ as a line to exclude anything beyond Vietnam and Iraq.Not exactly the best examples compared to plenty other wars in the past that arguably brought more relative peace and prosperity.
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Beryllos
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Okay, I was thinking of World War II. Several countries entered the war justly. There was some kind of plan to restore peace. We may well question the use of the A-bomb, but I don’t know, perhaps the alternatives were even worse.Define ‘recent.’
Not exactly the best examples compared to plenty other wars in the past that arguably brought more relative peace and prosperity.
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St_Francis
Guest
I think one problem is that we have not had time to sort out the moral issues before using new weapons, and the fact that so many of the “recent” wars were not conducted by devout Catholics.
You don’t have to. The recent wars can be said to have questionable justification. No one is obligated to hold that Iraq 1990, Iraq 2003, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea met the criteria for just wars.
That’s not the same as actually denying the validity of the just war doctrine itself. Just because little or no recent wars met the doctrine doesn’t mean the doctrine itself isn’t correct. That’s where the NCR article goes wrong.
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Beryllos
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I have enjoyed both the referenced article and this thread because they have got me learning and thinking. Thanks all.
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mikekle
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Well, prayer should be enough, if done by enough people and if they are truly sincere enough…but strange thing is, I cant think of ONE single time in history when prayer was enough to stop something like this.
If faith and prayer were truly that powerful, why did the CC even need the crusaders?
Makes you think…
History tells us that it’s not sufficient. God expects us to take action too.
Lepanto, anyone?
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St_Francis
Guest
Pray as if everything depends on God; act/work as if ecerything depends on you.
St Augustine of Hippo & St Ignatius Loyola
St Augustine of Hippo & St Ignatius Loyola
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