Change in the View of the Role of Catechism and Bishops

[jfz178]

I’m an “old-school” Catholic. I’m 65 years old. I was raised in the old Catechism, went to Catholic grade school and high school, taught by nuns, brothers and priests, was an altar server in the Latin Mass, raised two girls in the Church through Catholic schools. I have been a multi-instrumental music minister for 40 years and a big fan of the St. Louis Jesuits.

When I came up, Catechism was something you learned in grade school and high school as sort of a “Catholicism 101.” Then you graduated and moved on to the real world. I don’t recall Catechism even being mentioned in 48 years of homilies since I graduated Catholic high school, including recently.

Also, we always knew we had a bishop, in the case of my youth, a Cardinal/Archbishop, but we rarely heard from him. He was rarely in the news. Occasionally, the priest would read a letter from him for the homily and it was usually about scome fund-raising campaign. I never heard of the USCCB or any of its predecessor organizations until recently. That organization is still not mentioned in parishes I have been in in the last 10 years.

When I recently joined this forum, I was surprised to see how much people quote the Catechism and the USCCB. There seem to be some people here who consider the Catechism and the USCCB as the be-all and end-all for every question of faith. That is foreign to my 65 years of being a Catholic. We always got spiritual direction from our parish priests. Now I hear some people implying that it is common for priests to be wrong and that we should not listen to them if they are wrong.

Has respect for the common priest diminished? Is this everyone’s view? What changed? How did it change? Why did it change? Were us old-schoolers just wrong all those years? That would be ironic, because Catholics seemed to be more holy and obedient back in the day. The Church had fewer problems with scandals, vocations, finances, volunteers, etc. Just wondering.

 

[Genesis315]

Put it this way, there were two times in the history of the Church that the Church published a universal Catechism–during the confusion of the Reformation in the 1500s and in the aftermath of Vatican II (specifically in 1992). That should tell you something.

Unfortunately, it was the failure of many priests and bishops to properly hand on the faith that made this necessary in both cases.

As for some of the specific things you mention, a lot of it is the information age. As you mention, you had no idea what your bishop was doing (not to mention bishops’ conferences like the USCCB–which were encouraged by Vatican II) other than what was read at Mass. Now, like everything else we never heard about in simpler times, it’s all over the internet and easy to find.

More than ever, the faithful can see if their pastor is feeding them his own personal doctrines or the actual Catholic faith. Catholics have the ability to be more knowledgeable than ever. On the other hand, it’s easy for us to fall into the trap that we can be self-sufficient and disregard the pastor…

In the old days, the Church was operating like a well-oiled machine and priests rarely deviated from the faith. For whatever reason, Vatican II lead to a lot of experimentation, novelty, and dissent from the old, well-settled truths…

Also, I’m sure the abuse scandals have not helped foster that old filial trust in the parish priest.

Just to add, Catholic Answers forums is also a self-selecting group of hyper-informed Catholics (or at least we think we are…), that tend not to represent the average person in the pew.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I think it is just that we are in the information age now. I got almost no religious education from my ccd classes. I would say, that the catechism of the Catholic Church, John Paul II quoted as being a sure known for teaching the faith.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

We always got spiritual direction from our parish priests. Now I hear some people implying that it is common for priests to be wrong and that we should not listen to them if they are wrong.

…Catholics seemed to be more holy and obedient back in the day. The Church had fewer problems with scandals, vocations, finances, volunteers, etc. Just wondering.

Perhaps it depends on what area or diocese you are in. It is undeniable that the Church has generally been in crisis in Europe and the US in the last 50 years. Mass attendance, marriages, birth rates, religious vocations, have collapsed. Some bishops and priests have been openly heterodox and disobedient. Saying “just trust your parish priest” is not an easy answer to historic crisis.

 

[ChunkMonk]

I would say that I trust my parish priest unless I know for a 100% fact that he is wrong, and even then I am wary of contradicting him because I am stupid and often misinterpret even the simplest of things. I try to give my parish priest the same moral and mental authority and assent that a child of six owes their father.

 

[Kei]

They stopped teaching accurately and because of a lot of rumors, after Vat II (not following what it actually said, but what it was expected to do), a lot of priests were taught poorly. Some who just prayed the Rosary were considered too fanatical. Some on the verge of becoming priests got girlfriends because they thought the celibacy thing was going away. Etc.

Also we are now in the information age and can look up the Catechism, which is pretty much official on the teachings of the Church.

 

[jfz178]

You make some really good points, specifically:
…there were two times in the history of the Church that the Church published a universal Catechism–during the confusion of the Reformation in the 1500s and in the aftermath of Vatican II (specifically in 1992).
If Vatican II was a problem, why wait 25+ years to take corrective measures?

Unfortunately, it was the failure of many priests and bishops to properly hand on the faith that made this necessary in both cases. and "…the faithful can see if their pastor is feeding them his own personal doctrines or the actual Catholic faith"
So that brings up two questions for me. 1) Then shouldn’t the Catechism be more of a teaching tool for the bishops to use with the priests? and 2) What keeps the bishops from feeding people their own person doctrines? It seems to me they are getting into political issues a LOT more than they used to.

Catholic Answers forums is also a self-selecting group of hyper-informed Catholics (or at least we think we are…), that tend not to represent the average person in the pew.
That is a really good point. So where do you think it will go from here? If all of this is for catechists, the bishops and the CAF, it seems kind of academic. If it is not for the average person in the pew, what is it for?

Also, how does all that reconcile with John Paul II’s statement about the 1992 Catechism, which I totally don’t understand: (The Catechism is) “a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion and a sure norm for teaching the faith… (It) is not intended to replace the local catechisms duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences”.

How did the Episcopalians get in there? It also seems to indicate that local bishops have some primacy over the Catechism, which gets back to the clergy coming up with their own doctrines. Keep in mind bishops are essentially priests of higher rank. I doubt they lose their opinions when the get promoted.

 

[RandomAlias]

When I came up, Catechism was something you learned in grade school and high school as sort of a “Catholicism 101.” Then you graduated and moved on to the real world.

I know that many were taught by the Baltimore Catechism, which to me seems to be written for school children, although the truth contained in it is for people of all ages. I thought the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) was written as a quick reference for bishops and priests – its style is somewhat too scholarly – but it seems to have been taken up by some of the laity, including myself. Why? Because it helps me to better understand some things that I look up, and while I am reading, I occasionally discover other things I didn’t already have occasion to think about.

As for the USCCB, I refer to them because of their website, which is one of many online resources that I use. It has certain kinds of material that I can use.

I’m not sure that there is any connection between the use of these resources and the Church’s problems of late.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

If Vatican II was a problem, why wait 25+ years to take corrective measures?

Vatican ll was not a problem, it was a solution to the Middle Ages. I don’t know why it took 25 years to publish a new CCC. Maybe he wanted Vll to sink in a bit first.

Then shouldn’t the Catechism be more of a teaching tool for the bishops to use with the priests?

I don’t think the CCC is appropriate for that task.

If all of this is for catechists, the bishops and the CAF, it seems kind of academic. If it is not for the average person in the pew, what is it for?

I find that it is mostly academic. 90% of the stuff that is debated on CAF is totally unnecessary to know, and probably even dangerous for laity to venture into, as you can probably tell by being here on CAF for any amount of time.

 

[Gorgias]

When I recently joined this forum, I was surprised to see how much people quote the Catechism and the USCCB. There seem to be some people here who consider the Catechism and the USCCB as the be-all and end-all for every question of faith. That is foreign to my 65 years of being a Catholic. We always got spiritual direction from our parish priests.

Umm… where, exactly, do you think they got their answers from?

 

[Spyridon]

You’re utilizing it.

The Internet.

 

[Spyridon]

How did the Episcopalians get in there?

LOL you silly! He didn’t mean the Episcopalians as in the Protestant Episcopal churches - he meant the Bishops Conferences of the Catholic Church.

The word Bishop comes from the Greek Episkopos - overseer. It is synonymous to say “Bishops conference” or “Episcopal conference”.

Thanks for the laugh!

 

[Spyridon]

Then shouldn’t the Catechism be more of a teaching tool for the bishops to use with the priests?

@jfz178 At the beginning of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) we find the Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum (the Deposit of Faith) by Saint John Paul the Great, and it begins by being addressed to "my Venerable Brothers the cardinals, Patriarchs, Archbishops, Bishops, Priests, Deacons, and to all the People of God.

Similarly, we also find in this Constitution these statements:

“Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously”

“It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation”

“The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.”

As one can clearly see, the Saintly Pontiff never intended for the CCC to function merely as a reference tool for clergy - he also intended it to be utilized by all the faithful. And not just all the faithful, but in fact the entire human race.

 

[jfz178]

Glad you got a laugh out of it. I had no idea.

 

[Jared2914]

A big reason for my focus on the Catechism is because where I live there is a big priest shortage. Several parishes don’t even have a priest, with one priest having to be shared between multiple (one mass at each church per weekend). Priests just aren’t as available as before. Religious brothers and sisters are almost nonexistent in my local parishes. In other words, if I want to learn more about the faith, I need to do most of the work myself. I enjoy the pastor’s homily and letter in the bulletin each week, but that’s not enough for me. I can ask the priest a quick question after mass, but he’s too busy to be my one source for answers. I simply have to many things to learn more about.

Parishioners can learn more in a group setting through Bible study / Catholic book study or individually by studying the Catechism, Church teachings, and writings of the saints. The nice thing about this self-directed study is that we can read the sources for everything the priest preaches at mass. With the internet, it’s all online and most of it is completely free. In fact, the priest reads these same writings when he sits down to write his homily. Why not read them and study them ourselves to supplement what our priest teaches? Especially today with the priest shortage, I see it as a necessity to study the faith on our own if we want to be a close to God and become saints.