Change Sui Juris Church or go Syriac/Malankara Orthodox

[countertenor]

My wife and I are both canonically Latin Catholics. We both spent time in the Syriac Orthodox Church. Our son was chrismated and received communion in the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church at 1 year of age. We’ve since come back to the Latin Catholic Church, partially because there is no Syriac Church anywhere near us. We are now practicing in the Latin Church again and are very unhappy with it. We want to bring our children up in an Eastern Church and as such are planning to relocate whenever we are able to be somewhere there is an eastern Church.

Our problem is that in coming back into the Catholic Church, we recognize that we need to be in union with Rome, but we cannot continue as Latin Catholics, even if we are forced by circumstances to worship in the Latin Church for the time being. We really don’t know what to do anymore and are torn between returning to the Orthodox Church and maintaining cummunion with Rome, which leaves us in a situation where we are under the authority of bishops of a tradition we can no longer find ourselves at home in.

Part of our issues are that the Latin priest and bishop here will not allow our child to continue receiving communion unless we formally return to the Syriac Orthodox Church or possibly do an official change of sui juris Church. We’d love to enter officially into the Syriac Catholic Church or Syro-Malankara Church, but their are none anywhere near us, the closest Eastern Churches are Ukrainian Catholic (5 hours away), which are Byzantine, and while we feel more at home with them than in the Latin Church, we don’t want to use the Byzantine Church just as an escape from the Latin Church, we want to be Oriental.

Any thoughts? I don’t want to belittle the Latin Church, but I have never been at home in it, however it was the only Catholic or Orthodox Church where I grew up, so that was the choice I had when I felt called to join the Catholic Church when I was in the 4th Grade.

Thanks
Countertenor

 

[Ghosty]

Part of our issues are that the Latin priest and bishop here will not allow our child to continue receiving communion unless we formally return to the Syriac Orthodox Church or possibly do an official change of sui juris Church.

They actually can’t deny your child Communion, since your child is under Eastern Canon Law. I’ll see if I can dig up the relevant provisions, but it is law in the U.S. that Eastern children can receive Communion in the Latin Church.

Peace and God bless!

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Ghosty,

They actually can’t deny your child Communion, since your child is under Eastern Canon Law. I’ll see if I can dig up the relevant provisions, but it is law in the U.S. that Eastern children can receive Communion in the Latin Church.

This would not seem to help since, as brother Countertenor noted, he is canonically a Latin Catholic.

The best advice one can give him is HOW to switch sui juris Churches if there is not an Oriental Catholic Church of the Syriac Tradition nearby. That question has always plagued me, for the interests of preserving the Eastern or Oriential Catholic identity.

Brother Countertenor, the best advice I can give you as an Oriental myself is that the Syriac Orthodox and Catholic Churches have the closest relationship I know of between two apostolic Churches that are not in communion with each other. If you found a Syriac Orthodox Church (i.e., Oriental Orthodox) to go to, and explained that you are Catholic, there is a great likelihood that the priest will let you (and your family, including your children) commune. If you went to an Antiochian Eastern Orthodox Church as a Catholic, the likelihood of communion would be far less, but it is still practically possible. Brother Ghosty has some very inspiring stories in this regard.

My main point, brother Countertenor, is that, as far as the Syriac Orthodox (Oriental Orthodox communion) and Catholic Churches are concerned, you should not feel compelled to leave the Catholic Church in order to be fed by the spiritual fruits of the Syriac Tradition.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Ghosty]

This would not seem to help since, as brother Countertenor noted, he is canonically a Latin Catholic.

The child is not, however, and that’s the basis I was working on. You’re right about looking into switching canonical enrollment.

Peace and God bless!

 

[countertenor]

Thanks to both of you. If there were a Syriac Orthodox Church around I would continue to go there. My son’s godfather’s is a Syriac Deacon and his father is a Syriac (Malankara) priest (corepiscopa). At the time we were practicing in the Syriac Orthodox Church (a different parish), the priest recommended that we have our son baptized in the Latin Church (only because we had older family who couldn’t travel to where our Syriac Church was. Then later when my goddaughter was baptized, chrismated, and communed, my son was chrismated and communed.

In the mind of the Malankara Syriac Orthodox & Syriac Orthodox Churches, my son is canonically Orthodox, the problem is that my wife and I were both baptized in the Latin Church, as was our son. The closest Syriac Church I’ve found is basically six south, which is just shorter than us going north to our old parish.

This particular parish priest and bishop I don’t think would ever accept us as Orthodox because of our Latin baptisms and we’re really trying to figure out how we could become Oriental Catholic when there are none within even six hours of us. It’s very frustrating. Our daughter who is one month old is going to be baptized, ect in the Ukrainian Catholic Church next month, and the priest has been very helpful, and would even like to have his bishop intervene, but doesn’t feel he can until we are canonical members of at least some Eastern Catholic Church.

 

[SyroMalankara]

CT,

What is your location? I think I asked you this before, but I forgot what you stated… I will try to connect you to a priest or bishop… we’ll go to a Canon lawyer if need be!

 

[Aramis]

Actually, the OP states that the child was chrismated Syrankara Orthodox.

The child is thus orthodox, and thus when they return, ECC.

 

[mardukm]

The child is not, however, and that’s the basis I was working on.

Noted. Thank you. However:

Both you and brother Aramis rightly pointed out that the child is canonically Syro-Malankar Orthodox. Brother Aramis further added that when he switches, he will automatically be an Oriental Catholic. But not having the means to make such a volitional act at this moment, then isn’t it the father’s canonical Tradition that is the determining factor at this point? So the child must/should practice in the father’s canonical Tradition, until such time as he is able to choose otherwise. The father’s switching canonical enrollment seems to be the only viable option for the child to be able to have a canonical right to the Syriac Tradition (as even the closest Syriac Orthodox Church is hundreds of miles away).

Or perhaps you took that into account when you acknowledged the relevance of the issue of switching canonical enrollment(?).

With brother Syromalankara on the job, I hope brother Countertenor can get access to the proper channels for help.

Blessings

 

[countertenor]

Hey everyone. Continued thanks for you (name removed by moderator)ut. Syro-Malankara, we live in Northern California. I’ve tried to get information on the relevant syro-malankara bishop, but as far as I had found there is only an Apostolic visitor, and while several websites give his name, I haven’t found any that give email or other contact information.

As Mardukm has mentioned the priest here is working off the assumption that the child can’t be Orthodox or Syro-Malankara Catholic, because I was baptized in the Latin Church. That seems to be the problem with the switching from Orthodox to Catholic thing. If you were ever part of the Latin Church, they’re not going to recognize you as Eastern Catholic when you come back to the Catholic Church, without that piece of paper saying you’ve switched sui juris Churches. So yes I think the only way my son is going have access to his canonical rights is for me to change Churches (at least at the moment, I’m able to cross over into another diocese where they are fine with him, but I don’t want to keep up this “game.” I’d rather get things situated, because I am not okay with the Latin practice of denying children the Eucharist.

The thing they keep repeating is that I “shouldn’t” have had my son chrismated in the Malankara Orthodox Church, and they can’t seem to get it through their head that I was communing with them at the time, and honestly I still consider myself in communion with them. but as was mentioned earlier the syriac Orthodox and the Catholic Churches have such immensly close relations even my syriac Orthodox parish was really about 50 percent Catholic. Most of the children have one Catholic and one Orthodox parent, and honestly, even the priest is in a situation like that. He has sisters who are Catholic nuns, and a brother or two that are either Catholic priests or deacons if I remember correctly. There really is no division in any practical way in many of these parishes beteween the Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholics (including Malankara Orthodox & Syro-Malankara Catholics.

I do want to change Sui Juris Churches, and I’m not really sure how this is possible, when in no way near a Syriac/Syro-Malankara Church. And the hardest thing is that honestly the only connection I can even dirive from the Latin Church at this point is as a musician when I’m doing sacred music or the Eucharist itself. But even the Eucharist is hard now, when they try to deny it to my son. And aside from that I’m really having a hard time dealing with all of the bogus theological constructs that are used to try to justify it. The lack of historical knowledge is unbelievable, and the lack of actual theology and catechisis is beyond anything I can tolerate. In so many ways I’d rather be officially Oriental Orthodox, than Latin Catholic.

 

[Aramis]

The problem is that very many catholics, even amongst the clergy, do not realize that there is a formal treaty between the Malankara Orthodox and the Catholic Church, establishing such as legitimate.

In short, the OP is encountering ingnorant RC priests, who are also ignoring the CCEO.

Contact the bishop, request formal change of rite, and move forward.

 

[countertenor]

Aramis,

Yes, that’s what I’m looking at right now. However sadly the bishop is just as ignorant as the priest, and while in private correspondence with he didn’t say no, he said de doesn’t really want any children receiving in his Diocese until around age seven, eastern or not. But again he didn’t actually say no, he just invoked unity of the Church and what he though was proper, but with out any back up or anything to establish what proper was. I think he’s hoping we’ll just go away.

 

[SyroMalankara]

CT,

Here’s what we can do – I have the Apostolic Visitor’s information, in fact we just met with him, 9 of our bishops and our Catholicos Bava in Dallas two weeks ago (at our Syro-Malankara Convention)…

I will make an appointment with a priest-friend who is a Canon lawyer and a spiritual father who I respect – he is the Chancellor of the Syro-Malabar Eparchy for North America.

Give me a few weeks and we’ll get this straightened out – I will need you to privately message me all the circumstances of your situation, with dates. I will also need your name and address so that I can inform the appropriate people of your situation.

As you stated, many of us have family and friends in each other’s churches and the division is very fluid…

Even without a Syro-Malankara parish in your area, we will sort out your situation – I am sure that the newly elected Patriarch of the Syriac Catholic Church can speak to the local Latin bishop and the Syriac Orthodox parish to clear up the misunderstanding - Moran Mor Ignathios is very prompt in returning email - usually he does so personally.

 

[Aramis]

Aramis,

Yes, that’s what I’m looking at right now. However sadly the bishop is just as ignorant as the priest, and while in private correspondence with he didn’t say no, he said de doesn’t really want any children receiving in his Diocese until around age seven, eastern or not. But again he didn’t actually say no, he just invoked unity of the Church and what he though was proper, but with out any back up or anything to establish what proper was. I think he’s hoping we’ll just go away.

Work with SyroMalankara… get it straightened out.

The decision not to commune EC children is not his to make on a blanket basis. They are entitled to commune, and REQUIRED by canon law to be communed at least once per year.

The Bishop can bar particular individuals for good cause, but that is unlikely to exist, especially given the pastoral treaty, and your desire to translate to the Malakara Catholic Church.

It is arguable, however, that the child is canonically Latin, due to the parents remaining Latins and being in a Malankara Orthodox parish, the pastoral provision leaves them canonically being latin even though they are members of a MO parish.

 

[countertenor]

Yes I’ll be working with Syro-Malankara to transalte officially into the SM Catholic Church. I’d like to work it out as soon as possible, but I’ve also got to find out the things that are going to be different from the Syro-Malankara Church and the Malankara Orthodox Church, because in so many ways, we are so at home there, it’s just that we seek unity with Rome, not just a Roman Church with the Syriac Liturgy. I think this has been what had slowed us from outright seeking this change awhile ago. I really don’t want to deal with the imposition of innovative Roman customs on whichever Church I belong to. And I know that some of the Oriental Churches have not rid themselves of some of the customs Rome either imposed on them or encouraged among them. Whether that’s the separation of the sacraments of initiation, devotionals or even the ordination of married men to the priesthood. None of it is acceptable to me anymore. Why can’t the Roman Church actually follow the apostolic traditions, rather than just messing with things all the time. I love the current Pope, and I love all the work he’s done within the Latin Church, and how encouraging he has been for the Eastern Churches. I know he’s having to take a lot of flack from many people. I just wish the Latin Church could find it’s traditions that predate the medieval period.

 

[SyroMalankara]

CT,

Personal devotions among the people are fluid – just as you stated about our members having spouses, families, relatives in each others’ churches – the same is true for personal devotions…

Some people pray the Rosary privately, some prefer attending Stations during the Lenten seasons, other pray to a favorite saint … etc… this should not be nor can it be discouraged or stopped.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Countertenor,

Canon 535-2 of the Latin Code states:
In the register of baptisms, a note is to be made of confirmation and of matters pertaining to the canonical status of the faithful by reason of marriage, and by reason of adoption, the reception of sacred order, the making of perpetual profession in a religious institute, or a change of rite. These annotations are always to be reproduced on a baptismal certificate.

This Canon refers to the local parish, not the diocese. So there should presumably be a standard process in a local Latin parish for what you want to go through. I’m just saying it may not be as difficult as you think.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Countertenor,

Here are the other pertinent canons from the Latin Code for your situation:

Canon 111-1
Through the reception of baptism a child becomes a member of the Latin Church if the parents belong to that Church or, should one of them not belong to it, if they have both by common consent chosen that the child be baptised in the Latin Chch: if that common consent is lacking, the child becomes a member of the ritual Church to which the father belongs.

Canon 111-2
Any candidate for baptism who has completed the fourtheenth year of age may freely choose to be baptised either in the latin Church or in another autonomous ritual Church; in which case the person belongs to the Church which he or she has chosen.

Canon 112-1
After the reception of baptism, the following become members of another autonomous ritual Church:
1- those who have obtained permission from the Apostolic See;
2- a spouse who, on entering marriage or during its course, has declared that he or she is transferring to the autonomous ritual Church of the other spouse; on the dissolution of the marriage, however, that person may freely return to the Latin Church;
3- the children of those mentioned in nn,1 and 2 who have not completed their fourteenth year, and likewise in a mixed marriage the children of a catholic party who has lawfully transferred to another ritual Church; on completion of their fourteenth year, however, they may return to the Latin Church.

Canon 112-2
The practice, however long standing, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of an autonomous ritual Chruch, does not bring with it membership of that Church.

Here is what the official Commentary on the Code states on the matter:
Ritual enrollment and membership normally conform to the rite of baptism, so that the rite of baptism determines ritual affiliation; baptism acts as a practical norm. However, Eastern rite Catholics have sometimes accepted Latin Rite baptism for their children out of necessity (e.g., when no church of their rite is anywhere around) or by mistake (e.g., having lost contact with their ritual heritage) or based on their own preference. In such cases, the child actually belongs to the rite in which it should have been baptized in accord with this canon. In other words, neither practical necessities nor natural assimilation effects a transfer from one rite to another. A de facto baptism, when it takes place contrary to the canon, does not create a de jure ritual membership. Consequently, the baptismal rites by themselves do not constitute an absolute norm of ritual membership…In no case can parents ascribe their children to a ritual church sui juris other than that to which at least one of them belongs.

Now pay careful attention to Canon 112-1-1. It states that as a Latin Catholic, what you need to transfer to the Eastern Church is permission from the Apostolic See itself. The Commentary states that IT IS ONLY WHEN AN EASTERN CATHOLIC WISHES TO TRANSFER TO THE LATIN CHURCH THAT THE APPROVAL OF BOTH THE LATIN AND THE EASTERN BISHOP NEEDS TO BE OBTAINED. Don’t lose hope. The Commentary actually states: “It is easier for a Latin Catholic to affiliate to an Eastern Church than for an Eastern Catholic to transfer to the Latin Rite.” This sentence is footnoted with the following book reference: Roman Replies, ed. W. Schumacher (Washington:CLSA, 1981-1983), pp. 28-31. It is a book on Canon law issues. You can get it from your local library (you may need to do an interlibrary loan). I suspect there is actually less red tape by going to Rome than getting the approval of two bishops. All you would probably need to do is fill out a form or write a letter explaining your situation, and Rome will approve it, no questions asked. Please take the time to get that book I noted above - buy it or go to the library.

Hope that helps.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Vico]

…

Now pay careful attention to Canon 112-1-1. It states that as a Latin Catholic, what you need to transfer to the Eastern Church is permission from the Apostolic See itself. …

A rescript which modifies this CIC canon from the Vatican Secretary of State on November, 26th, 1992, was published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis (AAS 85 (1993)81). Accordingly, His Holiness Pope John Paul II, establishes that the authorization of the Holy See can be presumed whenever a faithful wishes to leave the Latin Church to join a Church sui iuris with an eparchy in the same territory, and both Diocesan Bishops give their assent in writing.