Changes in Church Teaching

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Can anybody help me with this one?

One of the great strengths of the Church is her unchanging teachings on faith and morals. But some Protestant friends (and even a few Catholics) argue that the teaching of the Church has changed throughout the centuries, and therefore the authority of the Church is greatly diminished. They cite issues like slavery (once was approved, now declared sinful), teachings on usury, etc. These things go beyond mere disciple – they were once dogma but have since changed, and I have heard people use these examples to show that one day the Church may change her teaching on homosexuality, pre-marital sex, birth control, [insert whatever issue you want here].

How do you refute this? Or has the Church admitted she was, at one time, wrong about certain moral issues?

Thanks!

J-
 
Can anybody help me with this one?

One of the great strengths of the Church is her unchanging teachings on faith and morals. But some Protestant friends (and even a few Catholics) argue that the teaching of the Church has changed throughout the centuries, and therefore the authority of the Church is greatly diminished. They cite issues like slavery (once was approved, now declared sinful), teachings on usury, etc. These things go beyond mere disciple – they were once dogma but have since changed, and I have heard people use these examples to show that one day the Church may change her teaching on homosexuality, pre-marital sex, birth control, [insert whatever issue you want here].

How do you refute this? Or has the Church admitted she was, at one time, wrong about certain moral issues?

Thanks!

J-
The Church has NEVER revoked a dogma. All she has done in some cases is give deeper exposition on existing dogma or updated the language to clarify it for more modern times since we are afterall 2,000 years old and the vernacular secular languages all have drifting semantics (why ecclesial Latin is our formal internal language).

The Church never proclaimed slavery as a thing of virtue and was the first to ever speak out against it. Anti-Catholics will cite an obscure writing of one pope to the Spanish about enslaving enemies as an example of teaching of slavery. But this was not at all the case - these were Muslim enemies attacking the faithful and the pope simply authorized life sentences as a mercy to killing them as was the custom by Kings of the day who would not spend their wealth feeding its enemies indefinitely. This was NOT an endorsement of slavery in a universal teaching but an authorization for punitive measures for war criminals who were butchering civilians and forcing them to convert to Islam by killing their families and friends unless they did.

Always have faith in your church. Demand that the cite their references. None have any.

James
 
One thing to be aware of and to inform your friends is that the Church distinguishes between disciplines and dogmas. Disciplines can change, dogmas cannot, in some cases dogmas can develop but they** cannot **change.

For example priestly celibacy is a discipline instituted in the Latin Church around 1100 (widely adopted before that but mandated after), it may change again. The male only priesthood, is a dogma, laid down by Christ it cannot change, however over the degrees of holy orders have developed such as the Bishops, Priests, and deacons (minor orders in the extraordinary form)etc.
 
Can anybody help me with this one?

One of the great strengths of the Church is her unchanging teachings on faith and morals. But some Protestant friends (and even a few Catholics) argue that the teaching of the Church has changed throughout the centuries, and therefore the authority of the Church is greatly diminished. They cite issues like slavery (once was approved, now declared sinful), teachings on usury, etc. These things go beyond mere disciple – they were once dogma but have since changed, and I have heard people use these examples to show that one day the Church may change her teaching on homosexuality, pre-marital sex, birth control, [insert whatever issue you want here].

How do you refute this? Or has the Church admitted she was, at one time, wrong about certain moral issues?

Thanks!

J-
Well it depends on the literal meaning of “teachings of the church” because things have been changed throughout the centuries. Basically whenever a Christian power was prominent IE: During the Crusades, The Roman Catholics etc, the bible and some of the teachings by the Head of the Church was altered. I’m not sure what exactly was changed and what it used to be, but I myself have had a similar discussion as you did with others, and it seems things were a lot more harsh and darker in Christianity then they are now.

I myself am still looking into it, because its very interesting.
 
The Church never proclaimed slavery as a thing of virtue and was the first to ever speak out against it. Anti-Catholics will cite an obscure writing of one pope to the Spanish about enslaving enemies as an example of teaching of slavery.
…

Always have faith in your church. Demand that the cite their references. None have any.

James
As we say in South Georgia, “That dog won’t hunt”

Have a look at these (note the cites at the end!)
362 AD - The local Council at Gangra in Asia Minor excommunicates anyone encouraging a slave to despise his master or withdraw from his service. (Became part of Church Law from the 13th century).

354-430 AD - St. Augustine teaches that the institution of slavery derives from God and is beneficial to slaves and masters. (Quoted by many later Popes as proof of “Tradition”.

650 AD - Pope Martin I condemns people who teach slaves about freedom or who encourage them to escape.

1089 AD - The Synod of Melfi under Pope Urban II imposed slavery on the wives of priests. (Became part of Church Law from the 13th century).

1179 AD - The Third Lateran Council imposed slavery on those helping the Saracens.

1226 AD - The legitimacy of slavery is incorporated in the Corpus Iuris Canonici, promulgated by Pope Gregory IX which remained official law of the Church until 1913. Canon lawyers worked out four just titles for holding slaves: slaves captured in war, persons condemned to slavery for a crime; persons selling themselves into slavery, including a father selling his child; children of a mother who is a slave.

1224-1274 AD - St.Thomas Aquinas defends slavery as instituted by God in punishment for sin, and justified as being part of the ‘right of nations’ and natural law. Children of a slave mother are rightly slaves even though they have not committed personal sin! (Quoted by many later Popes).

1435 AD - Pope Eugenius IV condemns the indiscriminate enslavement of natives in the Canary Islands, but does not condemn slavery as such.

1454 AD - Through the bull Romanus Pontifex, Pope Nicholas V authorises the king of Portugal to enslave all the Saracen and pagan peoples his armies may conquer.

1493 AD - Pope Alexander VI authorises the King of Spain to enslave non-Christians of the Americas who are at war with Christian powers.

1537 AD - Pope Paul III condemns the indiscriminate enslavement of Indians in South America.

1548 AD - The same Pope Paul III confirms the right of clergy and laity to own slaves.

1639 AD - Pope Urban VIII denounces the indiscriminate enslavement of Indians in South America, without denying the four ‘just titles’ for owning slaves.

1741 AD - Pope Benedict XIV condemns the indiscriminate enslavement of natives in Brazil, but does not denounce slavery as such, nor the importation of slaves from Africa.

1839 AD - Pope Gregory XVI condemns the international negro slave trade, but does not question slavery as such, nor the domestic slave trade.

1866 AD - The Holy Office in an instruction signed by Pope Pius IX declares: Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery, and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons … It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given".
womenpriests.org/teaching/slavery1.asp
 
Well it depends on the literal meaning of “teachings of the church” because things have been changed throughout the centuries. Basically whenever a Christian power was prominent IE: During the Crusades, The Roman Catholics etc, the bible and some of the teachings by the Head of the Church was altered. I’m not sure what exactly was changed and what it used to be, but I myself have had a similar discussion as you did with others, and it seems things were a lot more harsh and darker in Christianity then they are now.

I myself am still looking into it, because its very interesting.
Look carefully, you’ve already picked up some false information (the Church established the content of the Bible - identifying which of the many “Christian” writings were to be proclaimed as the Word of God. The Reformers changed that a thousand years later.
As we say in South Georgia, “That dog won’t hunt”

Have a look at these (note the cites at the end!)
You don’t have to dig that far - the Bible is full of statements establishing and defining the conditions of slaves. Over the centuries the Church exercised her authority to change those stipulations and eventually to take the position that human beings cannot be owned (while still insisting that even if someone IS owned, they must be treated with the dignity due to humans). But as has been previously pointed out, there is a difference between that kind of teaching and a dogma. No one ever said that you must own slaves or support slavery in order to be saved - or, for that matter, to be ordained, which is, after all, the agenda of the organization which compiled your prooftexts . . . .

womenpriests.org/teaching/slavery1.asp
 
But as has been previously pointed out, there is a difference between that kind of teaching and a dogma.
Another non-hunting dog.

The original poster was asking about changes in Church teaching on faith and morals in general(my bold):
One of the great strengths of the Church is her unchanging teachings on faith and morals. But some Protestant friends (and even a few Catholics) argue that the teaching of the Church has changed throughout the centuries, and therefore the authority of the Church is greatly diminished.
I demonstrated substantive changes in the Church’s teaching on a matter of morality, human slavery. QED

No one was talking about dogmas.
 
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JVD:
The Church has NEVER revoked a dogma. All she has done in some cases is give deeper exposition on existing dogma or updated the language to clarify it for more modern times since we are afterall 2,000 years old and the vernacular secular languages all have drifting semantics (why ecclesial Latin is our formal internal language).

James
As we say in South Georgia, “That dog won’t hunt”

Have a look at these (note the cites at the end!)
Bill, do you realize that by referencing the propaganda materials of a liberal feminist cult who call themselves Catholics (even as they attack the Church leadership with their tripe) you are playing right into these groups’ agenda? As a Catholic are you sympathetic to these wackos? These are the same women who are ordaining themselves and trying to split the church up with yet another new denomination - that group is a coven of lesbians and bisexuals who reject Catholic moral teaching and want to remake the church in their own image. These are putting their own spin on the church history to try to extort the church to change its teachings to their own disordered ends.

As for 'this dog not hunting" - I mentioned dogmas - no dogs or anything else. None of the things you blindly parroted here are dogmas. These are in some cases opinions and in other cases judgements and proclamations about what is proper with respect to obeying or disobeying established secular laws; or else are establishing cannon laws to LIMIT and moderate the degree of slavery for conditions of war and criminal punishments - as a mercy to the death penalty or as just punishments. This is classic revisionist history. Just because the Church spoke out to moderate a wide spread historical practice it is projected anachronistically by enemies of the church as an endorsement of slavery. NO!

Think about this: If a person sells himself into slavery to further his own temporal needs that is HIS business just as it is YOUR business to mortgage your life and your family to the slavery of a 30 year tread mill to own a house; and just as it was the middle-age serfs’ personal decision in to agree to indenture themselves as slaves to their Lords for life. The Church does not enslave its members to dogmas that supercede one’s own right to enslave themselves except in the case of forbidding one from enslaving themselves to sin least they suffer eternal punishment and excommunication. Would you also consider excommunication from the Church liberation or slavery? 😉

Historical context is very important here. My statement stands - there have been NO changes to dogma.

Just to calibrate you - neither Jesus nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery. Slavery was very much a part of life in Judea, Galilee, and in the rest of the Roman Empire during New Testament times.

Although slavery is now universally condemned as a crime against humanity, it was customary in antiquity, and taken for granted as part of the economy and society of the early times. The Bible does not regard it as an abomination. It only regulates its practice, and occasionally compels the enslavement of others. Thus The Church has always taught that slaves should be treated humanely and justly. The Church developed her teachings here over time as society progressed. The insistence of the higher universal standard of freedom for all men was gained as she won moral persuasion and influence in the world. How does this become a negative here in this discussion? Only by twisting history and through a desire to denigrate the church is how…

There are many NT references to scripture and neither Jesus nor an apostle condemned this practice when the subject comes up. Quite the contrary the message is often to be obedient: Matthew 18:25, Mark 14:66, Luke 12:45-48, Ephesians 6:5-9, Colossians 4:1, 1 Timothy 6:1-3, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11.

Just for the record:
Catholic teaching began to seriously and decisively turn towards the abolition of slavery beginning in 1435 and culminating in three major pronouncements against slavery by Pope Paul III in 1537. A number of Popes issued papal bulls condemning enslavement and mistreatment of Native Americans by Spanish and Portuguese colonials. But we can go back to as far as St. Patrick who himself was an escaped slave in 415-493 AD to see how the Church started forming its germinating opposition to slavery as Patrick argued for the abolition of slavery among the peoples of his time. Also, the seventh century Saint Eloi used his vast wealth to purchase British and Saxon slaves in groups of 50 and 100 in order to set them free.

I don’t have the time to go through each of these items you list and discuss them further. But in general I can say that the church has never condoned outright revolution against the existing civil laws established by valid civil authorities for law and order. That’s not how the Church operates. Rather the Church appeals to reason via Catholic morality to motivate the peaceful change of secular laws where there are clear abuses of fundamental human rights and freedoms. We change hearts by persuasion and let humanity rise up to the Catholic standard. It is because of the success of Catholic Church and God’s grace working through her that we have today a general advancement of humanity with a largely universal condemnation of slavery by most secular and religious authorities.

QED:
NO changes to dogma under this topic. But this here is starting to take the flavor of a strawman to promote radical agendas.

James
 
Grace & Peace!

Another example of change might be the various alterations and ultimate abolition of the church’s laws regarding concubinage. The early church allowed either marriage or concubinage, the latter being deemed needful as, for instance, a free man or woman could not properly marry a slave. Concubinage laws were established or recognized in order to allow recognition of these relationships. The laws were altered at Trent and abolished, finally, in the late 19th/early 20th century.

The significance of the change is that concubinage was *definitely not marriage *Marriage was for free people who, as husband and wife, could produce offspring which had viable inheritance or legacy rights. The offspring of a man and his concubine, for instance, had no such rights. Regardless, it is not untrue to say that, with the concubinage laws, the church did at one time recognize as good and valid sexual relationships outside of marriage–or, if one were to argue that the church considered these relationships as de facto marriges, it could be said that the church adhered to a different understanding of marriage than the civil law could either admit or allow, but in saying so, one admits that the church consented to a situation in which there were multiple understandings of marriage as the state had an understanding of marriage to which the church’s understanding was (if only clandestinely) opposed. (Keep in mind that the church consistently used the language of both marriage and concubinage in their popularly understood meanings.)

Then there is the matter of “clandestine marriages” which were also eventually legislated out of validity but were once recognized as legitimate forms of concubinage…

Anyway…

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Another non-hunting dog.

The original poster was asking about changes in Church teaching on faith and morals in general(my bold):

I demonstrated substantive changes in the Church’s teaching on a matter of morality, human slavery. QED

No one was talking about dogmas.
You snipped the OP before you got to this sentence:
These things go beyond mere disciple – they were once dogma but have since changed, and I have heard people use these examples to show that one day the Church may change her teaching on homosexuality, pre-marital sex, birth control, [insert whatever issue you want here].
So someone **was ** talking about dogmas. Maybe you hadn’t noticed that bit.
 
You snipped the OP before you got to this sentence:

These things go beyond mere disciple – they were once dogma but have since changed, and I have heard people use these examples to show that one day the Church may change her teaching on homosexuality, pre-marital sex, birth control, [insert whatever issue you want here].

So someone **was ** talking about dogmas. Maybe you hadn’t noticed that bit.
No I didn’t. The part you quoted was not from the OP. I reproduce his original post here in its entirety:
Can anybody help me with this one?
One of the great strengths of the Church is her unchanging teachings on faith and morals. But some Protestant friends (and even a few Catholics) argue that the teaching of the Church has changed throughout the centuries, and therefore the authority of the Church is greatly diminished. They cite issues like slavery (once was approved, now declared sinful), teachings on usury, etc. These things go beyond mere disciple – they were once dogma but have since changed, and I have heard people use these examples to show that one day the Church may change her teaching on homosexuality, pre-marital sex, birth control, [insert whatever issue you want here].
How do you refute this? Or has the Church admitted she was, at one time, wrong about certain moral issues?
The OP was asking about changes in Church teaching on “certain moral issues”. I demonstrated that the Church has indeed changed its teaching on at least one moral issue (Slavery). As I said before, QED.

The fact that some other person came along and constructed a “strawman” argument (either willfully or innocently) involving Dogmas is irrelevant to the OP’s question and to my point.

Even worse, the 2nd poster misrepresented Dogma by at least implicitly asserting that the Church’s teaching on homosexuality, birth control and other issues were Dogmas, when they actually aren’t.

For future reference Dogma’s of the Church consist solely of these items:
From the work of Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, published by the Mercier Press Ltd., Cork, Ireland, 1955. With Imprimatur of Cornelius, Bishop. Reprinted in U.S.A. by Tan Books and Publishers, Rockford, Illinois, 1974.

  1. *]The Unity and Trinity of God
    *]God the Creator
    *]God the Redeemer
    *]The Mother of the Redeemer
    *]God the Sanctifier
    *]The Catholic Church
    *]The Communion of Saints
    *]The Sacraments
    *]Baptism
    *]Confirmation
    *]Holy Eucharist
    *]Penance
    *]Holy Orders
    *]Matrimony
    *]Extreme Unction
    *]The Last Things

  1. theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm
 
Bill, do you realize that by referencing the propaganda materials of a liberal feminist cult who call themselves Catholics (even as they attack the Church leadership with their tripe) you are playing right into these groups’ agenda?
Well truth is truth no matter who cites it. Or are you asserting that the truthfulness of a statement is dependent on whether or not you agree with the “agenda” of those that make it?
I mentioned dogmas - no dogs or anything else. None of the things you blindly parroted here are dogmas.
Since the OP wasn’t asking about Dogmas, your assertion, while true, is also irrelevent to this discussion. And constitutes, at best, a strawman. If your focus on Dogmas was an attempt to conflate them with other moral teachings, so as to, in some way, “prove” that the Church hasn’t changed its teaching, then it is something else…
My statement stands - there have been NO changes to dogma.
And it is still irrelevant.
 
Well truth is truth no matter who cites it. Or are you asserting that the truthfulness of a statement is dependent on whether or not you agree with the “agenda” of those that make it?
Nope I am not asserting that truthfulness is dependent on agreement with an agenda. Are you trying to assert that agendas hostile to one’s own beliefs imply a truth? Peculiar logic.
Since the OP wasn’t asking about Dogmas, your assertion, while true, is also irrelevent to this discussion. And constitutes, at best, a strawman. If your focus on Dogmas was an attempt to conflate them with other moral teachings, so as to, in some way, “prove” that the Church hasn’t changed its teaching, then it is something else…
This is your opinion and I don’t agree with it. Seeing that at least two principal OP respondents here took the OP’s question with respect to dogma I’d say you are in the minority opinion here so far. Why don’t you let the originator of the OP, KarrollKid04, be the judge of what she/he meant to ask rather than risk hijacking this OP? The OP asked for advise on how to answer questions about this charge. He did not ask for hostile attacks against the Church using “reformed” history to try to slander the Church. Why do you seem so eager here as a Catholic to slander the church that you are a member of? Are you really a practising Catholic or do you just enjoy playing devil’s advocate?

I’d suggest that if you want to start an inquisition that you start your own OP.
And it is still irrelevant.
So say you. But not answering the OP’s question about how to defend against the false charges and turning this into a slander-fest of Catholic history renders your comments not only irrelevant but a rude attempt to hijack the OP against forum rules.

Be consistent or remain hypocritical to your own charges of “strawman”. 😉

James
 
No I didn’t. The part you quoted was not from the OP. I reproduce his original post here in its entirety:

The OP was asking about changes in Church teaching on “certain moral issues”. I demonstrated that the Church has indeed changed its teaching on at least one moral issue (Slavery). As I said before, QED.

The fact that some other person came along and constructed a “strawman” argument (either willfully or innocently) involving Dogmas is irrelevant to the OP’s question and to my point.

Even worse, the 2nd poster misrepresented Dogma by at least implicitly asserting that the Church’s teaching on homosexuality, birth control and other issues were Dogmas, when they actually aren’t.
I stand corrected - thank you.
 
But not answering the OP’s question about how to defend against the false charges and turning this into a slander-fest of Catholic history renders your comments not only irrelevant but a rude attempt to hijack the OP against forum rules.

Be consistent or remain hypocritical to your own charges of “strawman”. 😉

James
Let me get this straight. The OP asks how to “refute” the assertion that the Church has changed it’s teaching on a moral issue. I point out that the assertion is true, and provide proof. So you accuse me of a) irrelevance and b) “highjacking” a thread against Forum rules?

You really need to get a grip. Seriously. You’ve raised “misinformation” to an art form.
 
This is your opinion and I don’t agree with it. Seeing that at least two principal OP respondents here took the OP’s question with respect to dogma I’d say you are in the minority opinion here so far. Why don’t you let the originator of the OP, KarrollKid04, be the judge of what she/he meant to ask rather than risk hijacking this OP?
Seriously? You don’t think
But some Protestant friends (and even a few Catholics) argue that the teaching of the Church has changed throughout the centuries, and therefore the authority of the Church is greatly diminished. They cite issues like slavery (once was approved, now declared sinful), teachings on usury, etc. These things go beyond mere disciple – they were once dogma but have since changed, and I have heard people use these examples to show that one day the Church may change her teaching on homosexuality, pre-marital sex, birth control, [insert whatever issue you want here].
Is actually asking for information about
issues like slavery (once was approved, now declared sinful), teachings on usury, etc.
? Seriously?

The fact that the OP misunderstands the definition of Dogma, doesn’t mean we should all pretend that his definition is correct. See my clarifying post. None of the issues he raises in his OP are actually Dogmas. Yet you insist on talking about them. Why?
The OP asked for advise on how to answer questions about this charge. He did not ask for hostile attacks against the Church using “reformed” history to try to slander the Church. Why do you seem so eager here as a Catholic to slander the church that you are a member of? Are you really a practising Catholic or do you just enjoy playing devil’s advocate?
It isn’t slander to provide true and correct information. The Church has demonstrably changed her teaching on both Slavery and Usury. Get over it.
 
Seriously? You don’t think

Is actually asking for information about ? Seriously?

The fact that the OP misunderstands the definition of Dogma, doesn’t mean we should all pretend that his definition is correct. See my clarifying post. None of the issues he raises in his OP are actually Dogmas. Yet you insist on talking about them. Why?

It isn’t slander to provide true and correct information. The Church has demonstrably changed her teaching on both Slavery and Usury. Get over it.
You have both slandered the Church as well as me personally in your bigoted judgement that I misrepresented dogma and teachings on abortion, homosexuality and other matters when I did no such thing. Who appointed you the church’s judge and my judge? Really - you need to get a grip here pal.

Stand down from the ad hominem slanders and STAY ON OP and either answer the OPs questions or withdraw. You are using this as a forum to slander the church history and incite with inflammatory rhetoric. All you have proved here is that you know how to pander to liberal and revisionist history.

James
 
Can anybody help me with this one?

One of the great strengths of the Church is her unchanging teachings on faith and morals. But some Protestant friends (and even a few Catholics) argue that the teaching of the Church has changed throughout the centuries, and therefore the authority of the Church is greatly diminished. They cite issues like slavery (once was approved, now declared sinful), teachings on usury, etc. These things go beyond mere disciple – they were once dogma but have since changed, and I have heard people use these examples to show that one day the Church may change her teaching on homosexuality, pre-marital sex, birth control, [insert whatever issue you want here].

How do you refute this? Or has the Church admitted she was, at one time, wrong about certain moral issues?

Thanks!

J-
No, the Church has never “Changed” as in reversed any doctrine or dogma.
 
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