Changes in the church?

[domestichippie]

I’m having trouble finding a good explaination of this:

1.) Is the church supposed to be infallible in its teaching?

2.) If so can it change its mind? I keep ti ding things that say non Catholic Christians are hoped to have salvation (its just. Harder?)

3.) What does excommunication do? Can excommunicated persons find salvation? St Joan of arc was excommunicated but later declared a saint. How does that reconcile with the church being constant?

 

[davidv]

I’m having trouble finding a good explaination of this:

1.) Is the church supposed to be infallible in its teaching?

Jesus establish a Church and said he would sent the Holy Spirit to guide it to all truth. Infallibility is one of the effects of this guidance.

2.) If so can it change its mind?

Not in the areas of faith and morals. Often however the teachings are reworded or refined to make them more understandable.

I keep ti ding things that say non Catholic Christians are hoped to have salvation (its just. Harder?)

3.) What does excommunication do?

It is supposed to be an attention getter. The intent is to get the offender to change their ways.

Can excommunicated persons find salvation?

Yes. It is called repentance and reconciliation.

St Joan of arc was excommunicated but later declared a saint. How does that reconcile with the church being constant?

Only people change. Hopefully from sinner to saint.

 

[constantconvert]

I’m having trouble finding a good explaination of this:

1.) Is the church supposed to be infallible in its teaching?

Infallibility is limited to the teaching of doctrine and morals. It occurs when the the bishops as a body in their doctrinal and moral teaching, or when the pope speaks ex cathedra (solemnly and officially). But there is much of the church that does not fall into that category. Simply put, not every word that comes out of the pope’s mouth is infallible, but only when he makes a special (and rare!) ex cathedra pronouncement on doctrine or morals.

Infallibility is a protection of the Church’s indefectibility. Without it, the Church has only human authority. And if it has only human authority, it does not correspond to what Christ said to the apostles in Matthew 18:18: “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”; and to Peter in Matthew 16:18: “I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” Either the Church has such protection, or Christianity as a whole is dependent on the doctrines of men rather than of God.

2.) If so can it change its mind? I keep finding things that say non Catholic Christians are hoped to have salvation (its just. Harder?)

It cannot change those things which it has declared infallible, but much of the disciplines and customs of the church can be changed. All Christians, whether they are Catholic or Protestant hope to be saved. All Christians find salvation the same way: baptism, faith in Christ, living a holy life.

3.) What does excommunication do? Can excommunicated persons find salvation? St Joan of arc was excommunicated but later declared a saint. How does that reconcile with the church being constant?

Excommunication is a censure where people are excluded from communion. Usually, but not always, it occurs automatically when someone commits a particular sin.
Forgiveness is always available to those who repent and are reconciled. There have been some people with some very shady pasts who have made sainthood. We are all sinners, no other kind of person becomes a saint.

 

[adrift]

3.) What does excommunication do? Can excommunicated persons find salvation? St Joan of arc was excommunicated but later declared a saint. How does that reconcile with the church being constant?

Excommuted Saints

According to this link to another thread, she was not excommunicated.

 

[jschutzm]

1.) Is the church supposed to be infallible in its teaching?

When it comes to faith and morals and only when pronouncing something “Dogmatically” that is - as a formal doctrine and infallible teaching.

traditions (small ‘t’) are not Dogmas
Priest being celibate and unable to marry - also not a Dogma, just a practice
Against Abortion - now that’s a Dogma and non-negotiable
How much interest can one charge for lending money? - not a Dogma
How many children to have - not a dogma

2.) If so can it change its mind? I keep ti ding things that say non Catholic Christians are hoped to have salvation (its just. Harder?)

The key is asking what it means by “no salvation outside of the church” - in other words… what consistutes “outside of the church” ??

The church has recent spent time refining what it means and reiterating this teaching so that there are few misconceptions about it. The principle does not change… but how it is expressed to the layity DOES.

3.) What does excommunication do? Can excommunicated persons find salvation? St Joan of arc was excommunicated but later declared a saint. How does that reconcile with the church being constant?

The best explanation of excommunication is this:

It is a medicinal procedure done to show the Catholic just how far outside of Church teaching they have stepped, in the HOPES that the person corrects and seeks forgiveness.

Excommunication only has to last as long as the person wants it to. Like Christ… the arms of the Church are wide open. All the person has to do is run back to the church, seek forgiveness and embrace her again. Like the Prodigal son - the Church will never withhold forgiveness from someone who is truly repentant.

The church is constant because it does not compromise on the Truth. The person excommunicated must repent and change their beliefs… not the church.

If a person seeks an abortion, they excommunicate themselves, whether or not the Church even knows that they had one. Their actions placed THEMSELVES outside of the church…separated from God.

The Church does not then say “it was OK for you to have that abortion… come, join us! and we’ll pretend like it never happened”

NO

The penitent must first truly recognized how wrong it was to seek an abortion. THEN go to confession to reconcile and be forgiven by God.

So the Church doesn’t compromise, if any… the penitent does.

 

[domestichippie]

SSo just to be clear. Excommunication does not automaticallycondemn one to hell?

 

[domestichippie]

So how do I know what is dogma/doctrine and what is just practice.

Would it be safe to say if its not in the catechism its just practice?

 

[constantconvert]

SSo just to be clear. Excommunication does not automaticallycondemn one to hell?

The church makes no declaration or judgement about anyone’s eternal damnation. That’s up to God.

 

[jschutzm]

SSo just to be clear. Excommunication does not automaticallycondemn one to hell?

OK, FIRS OFF - the Church NEVER makes formal pronouncements on the state of an individual’s soul. That is NOT for the church to decide…but for God, alone.
So unlike some Christian churches that talk about who is “saved” or “unsaved”
The Church doesn’t claim to know who is in Hell. In Heaven, yes… as we believe the Saints are in heaven… but Hell? - No

Secondly, Depends on what you mean by “automatic”

All of us may, at one point in our lives, be “heading towards hell” and therefore be ‘descended’ for it at based on our life choices.-- aka “in a state of mortal sin” But then repent and are forgiven, then turn our lives around. And then because of our repentance are NOT heading down the road towards hell… we literally and spiritually choose another path.
that’s true of many of us.

But God does not render a final judgement on our soul in the middle of our lives, when we still have a life to live. He withholds jdugement ‘til the end’ of our lives… so in THAT sense… NO excommunication does not automatically send anyone to hell.
It depends on THEM… not the fact that the Church ‘excommunicated’ them.

It is not like once a person is excommunicated, they instantly DIE and appear before God for a final judgement. - so it is not automatic.

SECONDLY - if you really think about it… a person excommunicates themselves… through their own actions. The church merely pronouncing what is already true. That the person has rejected the Catholic faith and put themselves outside of its grace and rebelled against God. So in a way… excommunication is merely a realization of what is already the case.

HOWEVER, on the other hand, if a person persists in this state (excommunicated) the rest of their life and dies in this state…then the church has reason to fear that they may go to hell. In this ‘sense’ one COULD say that an excommunicated person goes to hell ‘automatically’ - but this is based on the assumption that the person never recanted or repented.
But the Church doesn’t know for sure.

By dying in the state of excommunication from Christ’s church, they are outside of the normative means of salvation. - So the church generally assumes that outside of the normal means of salvation we are ALL lost.
In other words… only an extra ordinary total act of God can save them…that’s how bad the situation is.

My own analogy would be…

Kind of like being hit by lightning, while being eaten by a shark, just as this shark is being caught in a fishermen’s net, as the fishermen’s boat is getting rammed by Green Peace activists. – I’m not saying it couldn’t happen… just sayin’ it is a looong shot and we shouldn’t count on it happening just like that.

Similarly… the Church can’t say that God won’t save any one person…but CAN say that we should do everything in our power to stay out of that sort of situation.

So there is nothing “automatic” in the sense that there is no turning back or the person can’t change their own heart.

You may recall that a previous Pope excommunicated a Bishop because he was teaching heresy and wouldn’t stop. That Bishop then ordained his own Priests in defiance of the Catholic church. It was 20 years before the Priests formally came to the Pope and sought forgiveness and recanted on the heresy that they were teaching.
Believing them to be sincere… the Church of course lifted the excommunication and accepted them back into the fold as Priests.

So the church didn’t merely say “OK, but you are still stripped of your Priesthood.” NO… the church FULLY accepted them back as validly ordained Priests.

So excommunication… even after decades… can and is lifted all the time.

The Pro-Life movement is littered with women who have had abortions themselves only to realize how terribly wrong it was and then sought forgiveness. The church not only accepts them back… but often times encourages them to use their mistake as a lesson to other young girls.

Converts and Reverts to the faith are often times the strongest and most outspoken members of the faith.

 

[constantconvert]

So how do I know what is dogma/doctrine and what is just practice.

Would it be safe to say if its not in the catechism its just practice?

Yes, the catechism contains all the positive doctrine a Catholic is required to believe. It’s a very useful and beautiful book. If you’re looking for a list of dogma you can find one here

 

[domestichippie]

Buy automatic I did not mean that people instantly died and went to Hell. I meant that if they died in a state of excommunication did that mean they want to hell or is it just incredibly likely since they died in the state of unrepented sin.

For example people like Martin Luther.

But I think clarified pretty well for me

 

[adrift]

Buy automatic I did not mean that people instantly died and went to Hell. I meant that if they died in a state of excommunication did that mean they want to hell or is it just incredibly likely since they died in the state of unrepented sin.

For example people like Martin Luther.

But I think clarified pretty well for me

We do not know the state of anyone’s soul. Excommunication was meant to bring people back to being a practicing Catholic. It was meant as a positive not a negative. We have no idea if a person has unrepented mortal sin.