Changing hearts on abortion. What is the best way?

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AdamP88

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I’m posting this from Ireland where a panel set up by the government to examine various issues has recommended that our 8th Amendment (granting specific protection to the unborn child) should be replaced, allowing abortion without restrictions up to a time limit.

There will now, undoubtedly, be a referendum on the matter and both sides will be campaigning hard to convince people.

Most people in this country are probably on the fence on this issue.
My question is this: Should we present the brutality of abortion when presenting the case against abortion?
My own feelings are that only exposing the violent nature of abortion will ultimately convince people and end abortion.
I mean, we talk about the holocaust and how badly the Jewish people were treated by the Nazis. Why should we shy away from telling the truth on this issue?
 
I agree that the violent pictures are the best to show a crowd. I also think that if an individual woman is considering abortion and is offered a free ultrasound from one of those mobile van ultrasounds, she almost always decides to keep her baby. Thank you for caring.

Life starts at conception. Abortion is wrong at any stage for any reason.
 
AdamPeter said:
I’m posting this from Ireland where a panel set up by the government to examine various issues has recommended that our 8th Amendment (granting specific protection to the unborn child) should be replaced, allowing abortion without restrictions up to a time limit.

There will now, undoubtedly, be a referendum on the matter and both sides will be campaigning hard to convince people.

Most people in this country are probably on the fence on this issue.
My question is this: Should we present the brutality of abortion when presenting the case against abortion?
My own feelings are that only exposing the violent nature of abortion will ultimately convince people and end abortion.
I mean, we talk about the holocaust and how badly the Jewish people were treated by the Nazis. Why should we shy away from telling the truth on this issue?
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Its a sad thing that it seems people don’t want to listen to it or address it. I have to admit, even I don’t really want to participate in pro life things anymore, NOT because I don’t side with Pro Life, but because its severely depressing. I even think the Pro Life movement leaders know this and have made great strides in making the topic less depressing, focusing in on life rather than the death part, but its still so difficult to be outside those clinics, praying and watching women go in. For me, it was too much to know what is going on. People do not like to even think or talk about death. (Furthermore, I’m one of those people who often DO think and talk about death, and it even depresses me! So its a horrendous issue to even get people to stop and think about.)
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I think people know, but there isn't enough social tug to do anything about it.   Getting people solid and together and taking a huge stand on it would be helpful.  One of the things I thought about when outside those clinics was-  what if EVERY SINGLE parishioner was outside that clinic, praying.   That would be rather daunting to walk in there for an abortion.   The more people that are seen absolutely contesting it, the more its going to persuade those going in to have a second thought.
Its like having one weak looking bouncer at a club isn’t going to persuade the troublemakers to not get into trouble, but if you have 25 huge strong bouncers, then the troublemakers are going to go find another club to cause problems at. I’m not trying to say that the pro lifers outside clinics look like weaklings, but I am saying having only a few does not SHOW the sheer number of people who are against it, its not threatening, its more of an annoyance to these people. They are more apt to call a few “stupid believers” than if they saw a whole church of people standing out there praying. If those who favor abortion saw how many are set against it, they might start to wonder why and question their beliefs. I simply think those in the pro-abort community don’t see or hang with anyone who is pro-life, therefore they don’t think there are that many people out there who are pro life, therefore they are more apt to think their side is the right side.

So MORE PEOPLE out there… like, LOTS more. Like super BIG amounts of believers praying… that’s my suggestion.

But anyway, good question… I will note its probably better to get answers/ideas from those who used to be pro-abortion. They might have a better idea of how people can be persuaded to change.

oops, i see that this is more a question about presenting the violence. I wish we could, but I think people will ‘kill the messenger’ type thing… People do not want to see. I don’t think it would work too much. There are people in those building that see it every day, and they are not changed. Sadly. Shockingly. 😦
 
They are a tool but I doubt the most effective one. Groups who show those images on the street I think get branded as extremists. Also some parents get very upset if their kids accidentally see such things.

Having them on hand and offering to show people first I think is a good approach.

The only hope the pro-life cause have in Ireland is what the yes equality team did: get ALL pro-life groups to band together and canvas door to door across the country. Show people that pro lifers are sensible regular people (especially young people and females) who care, not religious nut job middle aged men and old people. I have nothing against middle aged male pro-life people, just that there is a false stereotype that they are the only pro-lifers.

Arguing with people will get you nowhere: people become entrenched in their beliefs if they are confronted. I canvassed for a while. People rarely care about facts or logic. They care about feelings. It’s basically about making a person feel like you are ‘chatting’ rather than debating and giving them some feel-good pro-life stories that they will remember. Ideally have a booklet on hand with facts and suggest they read it over a cup of tea so they do get your message but have a positive memory of the experience. That’s the best way to convince people (according to the training we received anyway).

I think the eighth will go because most people like to take the middle ground and a little bit of abortion is preferable to none or loads in their minds. 😦
 
St_Francis said:
My personal opinion is to show pictures of babies in the womb, like these.

To me, people will turn their eyes away from violent images, but non-violent ones will show the humanity of the unborn baby.

ETA: a lot of people disagree with me on this
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Yes. We have to make the “fetus” human. To many people today don’t consider it truly human. I think we need to hammer home the idea that in years to come people will look back at our era and view supporters of abortion the way people today view the slave holders of the past–those who didn’t see African Americans as “human” and instead treated them as beasts of burden, or as the way they view those who thought native american’s were savages, i.e. not really “human,” and who dispossessed them of their land, killed them or rounded them up onto reservations. You have to make them see the fetus as a human that can’t be killed simply because someone deems it less than human.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
My daughter saw those horrific movies of the various abortion processes at her Catholic High School. When she came home, she said :
***“Mama, if people in this country had to watch these videos, and see the violence, hear the sounds, they would be outraged. If this happened to any animal on the planet, you’d better belive it would be outlawed on the spot.” ***

Very true.
You can have all the arguments and theories of existence on the table, but until you SEE what happens to a person who was destined to be born with dignity and purpose, words fail. People love to argue.
The videos don’t lie.

Peace Adam, in the West of Ireland, people are pretty staunchly pro-life.
Keep praying!
:shamrock2:
 
I remember seeing a video of a person knocking down pro life signs of aborted fetuses and she said that the pictures are misleading and they aren’t how aborted “tissue” look like.

I also saw comments online whenever someone posts such pictures online. “that’s not how the fetus look like at 2 months!”. People are seriously misguided by the pro choice movement that they genuinely do not know how fetuses look like. They do not know when toes start to grow, when the heart starts beating etc. And then they get angry when we suggest women going for abortions shojld learn about the development of their baby, see an ultrasound, how abortion procedures look like etc. Because it could “make the woman feel guilty and change her mind”. :rolleyes:

I do think pictures of both alive and dead fetuses help. They see the before and after. Facts also help. I knew my stance on abortion became stronger when I learn how the fetus developed.

However, there will always be people who won’t care at all. They might agree that the fetus is alive, but it would be like killing a bug. The life is not that important to them. It’s not the “same” as someone who’s born and they won’t value the life over their convenience. Some even argue that killing a disabled child in the womb is more humane that letting the child grow up and die shortly after.
 
Violent pictures as accurate as they are will allow the other side to censor pro-lifers and the debate will be shifted to the images rather than the real issue. That’s been the experience in Canada.
Images of development are much better. There is one drawback and one should expect this: when a child is in the zygotic and embryonic stages. Be very prepared for questions on these stages.
 
The justifications for abortion used to be based around thorny issues of things like - what to do for victims of rape?

But really we’re talking about unborn babies being butchered in their millions because Jane down the road didn’t have a condom for that one night stand, or Johnny has disappeared after hearing the news, or Debbie wants another 5 years of building up her CV before having a career break.

A foot in the door leads to the mass slaughter of innocents.

I read an article in the guardian once about how a pregnant lady went to an advisory clinic about abortion, and it was a pro-life clinic informing her of all sorts of negative results and pitfalls of abortion. The lady suggested such services should be shut down as being too negative and upsetting, and the Guardian reporter agreed - but what was conspicuous was that there was no attempt to indicate that the condemned assertions of the advisory clinics were actually false.

Why? Presumably because they weren’t. The truth is out there, but pro-abortionists won’t want you to know what it is.

Facts - baby butchers don’t like them. Worth bearing in mind, I think.

I think there was a Christian punk band decades ago who wrote a song called kill a baby, save a dog, or something like that… I think that song should be revived :mad:
 
However, there will always be people who won’t care at all. They might agree that the fetus is alive, but it would be like killing a bug. The life is not that important to them. It’s not the “same” as someone who’s born and they won’t value the life over their convenience
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They know dead on, and they don’t care. The reality is they just don’t care. Whether they have no hearts, no souls, no brain in their head is unknown to me. But they laugh, they make sport of it, they care nothing at all for the horrific violence done to these tiny preborn women. Yeah, think of them as female, because probably most of them are, and since abortion is a female issue, well, there you go then. I know just how callous they are. When I’ve seen big grinning faces holding up posters of a drawing of a uterus with fallopian tube sticking up its middle finger, you can see they are beyond redeemable. I’ve seen things that are unbelievably crass, cruel, downright callous, and far beyond anything I can even put into words. Okay. You don’t want to be pregnant. Get your tubes cut then. Or keep your legs closed. It’s just so damned maddening and sickening I can’t stand it.
 
Crown_of_Stars said:
They know dead on, and they don’t care. The reality is they just don’t care. Whether they have no hearts, no souls, no brain in their head is unknown to me. But they laugh, they make sport of it, they care nothing at all for the horrific violence done to these tiny preborn women. Yeah, think of them as female, because probably most of them are, and since abortion is a female issue, well, there you go then. I know just how callous they are. When I’ve seen big grinning faces holding up posters of a drawing of a uterus with fallopian tube sticking up its middle finger, you can see they are beyond redeemable. I’ve seen things that are unbelievably crass, cruel, downright callous, and far beyond anything I can even put into words. Okay. You don’t want to be pregnant. Get your tubes cut then. Or keep your legs closed. It’s just so damned maddening and sickening I can’t stand it.
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You shouldn’t judge those people. Just pray for them. You dont know what their lives are like.

Also I would be very careful saying ‘don’t have sex if you don’t want to be pregnant’. Contraception fails, people get raped, babies are diagnosed with severe disability, women are diagnosed with severe illness. Almost no one will vote for abortion so that middle class married women can use it as fall back contraception. They’ll vote for it for women who are raped or might die or who’s baby won’t survive. The ‘close your legs’ argument damages the pro life cause because it comes off as callous and will put off the ‘fencers’ you are trying to convince.
 
pianistclare said:
Peace Adam, in the West of Ireland, people are pretty staunchly pro-life.
Keep praying!
:shamrock2:
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I’m from the West. I would have to disagree. 😦

I know no one my age who is pro life bar my sister and husband (in my area and its environs). I don’t have a single other peer who agrees with me. The handful of pro life activists I know are mostly older people. And it is a tiny handful. Honestly in my entire county I was the only one who would regularly volunteer for pro life canvassing.

Then again my county might just suck. I’ve heard that further north another county has a nice little pro life group going though I’ve never met them.
 
I would say consider the mind of the priests and the bishops. Take their counsel, that is always best. Consider what Pope Francis said, “The Golden Rule also reminds us of our responsibility to protect and defend human life at every stage of its development.” (Pope Francis’ address to Congress in Washington, D.C. on Sept. 24) This rule is important because has a profound prophetic context: “All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.” (Mt 7:12) Adherence to this rule requires continual self-conversion. Wisdom, wisdom, let us be attentive!
 
ShrodingersCat said:
You shouldn’t judge those people. Just pray for them. You dont know what their lives are like.

Also I would be very careful saying ‘don’t have sex if you don’t want to be pregnant’. Contraception fails, people get raped, babies are diagnosed with severe disability, women are diagnosed with severe illness. Almost no one will vote for abortion so that middle class married women can use it as fall back contraception. They’ll vote for it for women who are raped or might die or who’s baby won’t survive. The ‘close your legs’ argument damages the pro life cause because it comes off as callous and will put off the ‘fencers’ you are trying to convince.
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I’m a middleaged woman, and I know and understand not wanting to be pregnant. I don’t want to be either. I keep my legs closed, because I have no man in my life right now. I understand perfectly the feelings that can happen when a man and a woman are alone together, powerfully drawn to eachother, even if they aren’t married. One man, one woman is the way God designed it, and it’s a beautiful thing. Let me just say this. If a twelve year old girl were raped, that’s hideous and a thing that should never have happened to her. I would be afraid for her, a child possibly having to carry another child growing within her. Could she physically handle it? I don’t know. If a woman is raped, I feel, at the most, it should be morally acceptable that she (and especially for the twelve-year-old girl) get to a doctor right away and have implantation of a possibly fertilized egg stopped. At the very most, because obviously, no, there is no child in the womb yet. If I were raped, no, I would NOT want to become pregnant from it, so, yes, I do understand. Or, if all else fails, just hope for a miscarriage, if she just absolutely does not want to be pregnant, which is what I would do if it were me. It’s hard. It’s just so hard.
 
I probably should have clarified…I’m not specifically talking about images. More like in a debate on abortion to not be sfrsid to discuss what actually happens to a baby in the procedure. To include ex-abortionists in the conversation and publicise their testimony. Eg. Anthony Levatino.
 
AdamPeter said:
I probably should have clarified…I’m not specifically talking about images. More like in a debate on abortion to not be sfrsid to discuss what actually happens to a baby in the procedure. To include ex-abortionists in the conversation and publicise their testimony. Eg. Anthony Levatino.
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Oh in that case, for sure. But try and do it in a non confrontational way for the reasons I stated previously. Different arguments will affect people differently, it’s an important one for sure.

Sorry, I was imagining groups of people on the street with graphic signs handing out leaflets.
 
Praying in front of an abortion clinic. I had the privilege to do it with other Catholics. We had a sign with the Blessed Virgin Mary and another that stated simply what abortion is. I rarely looked to see who was coming and going into the clinic, I was praying for all involved. My intent was not to belittle anyone. Two young women were handing out literature to the young women going in. Part of the pack included literature about Project Rachel. Of course, the women were not forced and could decline the information pack.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/abortion/project-rachel/

One of the young ladies from our group was crying one day as she sat by the clinic. I went up to her to talk and she admitted she had an abortion at that clinic but God changed her afterward for the better. Some people came by to offer their support, others shouted profanity from their cars as they drove by. Two women came up to us to say, as non-Catholic Christians: “Our pastor never talks about this.” And they gave us words of encouragement. Being a visible witness and praying matters. The clinic eventually closed.

Ed
 
ShrodingersCat said:
I’m from the West. I would have to disagree. 😦

I know no one my age who is pro life bar my sister and husband (in my area and its environs). I don’t have a single other peer who agrees with me. The handful of pro life activists I know are mostly older people. And it is a tiny handful. Honestly in my entire county I was the only one who would regularly volunteer for pro life canvassing.

Then again my county might just suck. I’ve heard that further north another county has a nice little pro life group going though I’ve never met them.
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I am in the west of Ireland and I too disagree. Things have changed the last few years beyond all measure. Complacency is a false security

Life has become cheap and expendable and the new legislation which will come in ? I put a thread up on this a few days ago too.
 
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