Changing venues as a religious

[debraran]

I was watching a show on EWTN about vocations and the friars and nuns said there were so many years before total acceptance into the order so you have a lot of time to see if it was a good fit. Diocesan priests though are a little different. If one of them feels after so many years at a parish, this life is not a good fit, he wants to be a missionary, Franciscan, or something else within the priesthood, is it hard to get permission to leave?
This might not happen among older men and women but sometimes you do change as you mature and I wonder sometimes if a few of the many priests that left (not to get married) and were dissatisfied, maybe just were in the wrong area of the priesthood.

I also wondered about it because I read the in a community, although you can be unhappy, you have prayer daily, a group of men or women to support you and a more strict schedule. Many diocesan priests are busy but prayer, etc. can get put on the back burner and they have to be self-motivated. I heard a parish priest say sometimes, personal prayer is the first thing that goes, slowly and the secular life becomes greater and greater.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I was watching a show on EWTN about vocations and the friars and nuns said there were so many years before total acceptance into the order so you have a lot of time to see if it was a good fit. Diocesan priests though are a little different. If one of them feels after so many years at a parish, this life is not a good fit, he wants to be a missionary, Franciscan, or something else within the priesthood, is it hard to get permission to leave?
This might not happen among older men and women but sometimes you do change as you mature and I wonder sometimes if a few of the many priests that left (not to get married) and were dissatisfied, maybe just were in the wrong area of the priesthood.

No I do not think it is all that hard. No bishop is going to want to keep you if you do not feel that this is where you are called to be.

Orders do accept secular priests. But they must go though the Novitiate and formation just as a lay person does.

I also wondered about it because I read the in a community, although you can be unhappy, you have prayer daily, a group of men or women to support you and a more strict schedule. Many diocesan priests are busy but prayer, etc. can get put on the back burner and they have to be self-motivated. I heard a parish priest say sometimes, personal prayer is the first thing that goes, slowly and the secular life becomes greater and greater.

Being a secular priest is its own calling, just as being a religious priest, or just a brother, is. For the religious priest I think the calling is first to be a religious then to be a priest, at least that is how it worked out for me.

I had this discussion with a seminarian for the Archdiocese of San Antonio. He could not fathom living in community and the demands that this would place on his life just as I could not fathom living on my own in a rectory.

 

[debraran]

Your post reminded me of a conversation with 2 priests last year, one a friar and one a diocean priest. One said, he could never live with a bunch of men everyday without going crazy, the friar said he can’t imagine doing it alone, not having the free time to do other things, etc. I guess that’s why we are all different, I just wondered if you discovered it later, what would happen.

I did hear a friar say that you would have to start over again, come in as a novice and that might discourage some, but if you really wanted that type of spirituality, it wouldn’t matter enough to stop you.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I did hear a friar say that you would have to start over again, come in as a novice and that might discourage some, but if you really wanted that type of spirituality, it wouldn’t matter enough to stop you.

Yes, in a sense you would have to start over again.

That is you would enter as a novice or pre-novice depending on how the group you were entering works it out. But you would not have to redo the priestly education. I know of one priest and one deacon who entered religious groups. The deacon did it in his late 50’s.

So it can and has been done but I do not think it is as prevalent as religious changing orders or leaving orders to be a secular priest.

 

[puzzleannie]

the diocesan priest in formation is under spiritual direction, and if he, director, and vocations director agree, and sometimes there is a committee at the seminary who helps review such requests, yes the candidate may change seminaries, move to an order, or even change dioceses, with the bishop’s permission. For instance, many of the priests who serve in the RG valley are from outside Texas and whether order or diocesan priests specifically asked to be assigned to an area of great need, and were sent here. Diocesan priests can also be released by their bishops for missionary work, military chaplaincy, or special projects, such as Fr. Pavone and Priests for Life. He runs that organization only with permission of his bishop. Many dioceses have missions in other countries and assign priests, usually at the priest’s request, to such missions.

If a seminarian changes horses in midstream his college credits probably “count” but if he is moving to an order or another diocese he may, depending on their rules, have to start at square one as far as priestly formation. he would probably have to satisfy financial obligations to the first seminary, that also would depend on their policy.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If a seminarian changes horses in midstream his college credits probably “count” but if he is moving to an order or another diocese he may, depending on their rules, have to start at square one as far as priestly formation. he would probably have to satisfy financial obligations to the first seminary, that also would depend on their policy.

This depends on the order and province. My province accepts all student loans that are incurred in education. They make minimum payments until you make solemn vows and then they pay them off. So if you leave before solemn vows you are responsible for what is left.

I had some student loan debt when I entered and it is now being covered along with the extra loans I needed while in the pre-novitiate when I finished my bachelors degree.

Some provinces/orders do not cover any debt, including student loans. Just another thing that limited my choices. That and age.

 

[debraran]

I never really thought about it in this way before, but if because of lagging finances, etc. a seminary can’t take on the student loans (and nowadays they can be HIGH) that might also discourage anyone from entering the priesthood. . Usually if they have the “average” 20,000, it usually has a 10-20 year payback period. That is becoming more and more common now with the high college costs (having 3 teens, 1 in college, I know!)
When the question was asked recently on a vocation show on “Life on the Rock”, they really went all around it, because both the nuns and the friars probably couldn’t pay them off. They mentioned working to pay them off beforehand, but paying other bills, if you can’t live home, you may never do it. Depressing, but a reality today.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I never really thought about it in this way before, but if because of lagging finances, etc. a seminary can’t take on the student loans (and nowadays they can be HIGH) that might also discourage anyone from entering the priesthood. . Usually if they have the “average” 20,000, it usually has a 10-20 year payback period. That is becoming more and more common now with the high college costs (having 3 teens, 1 in college, I know!)
When the question was asked recently on a vocation show on “Life on the Rock”, they really went all around it, because both the nuns and the friars probably couldn’t pay them off. They mentioned working to pay them off beforehand, but paying other bills, if you can’t live home, you may never do it. Depressing, but a reality today.

Seminaries do not take on student loans. Seminaries get paid for the education. Dioceses pay for the education of their seminarians. Some of them require the seminarian to pay them back after ordination.

I looked into joining a diocese. Their policy is that the student loan for undergraduate work is the responsibility of the man and that they will pay for the seminary but after ordination the man must repay the diocese half of the cost of the seminary education.

 

[debraran]

How do they do that? If you are part of a parish, the stipend the archdiosise gives you? That wouldn’t be able to cover very much. You might be able to work it out, but some loans minimum is 200.00+ for the amounts I mentioned earlier.
And from what I heard the other night on the vocation show, that is only with diocean priests, if you live a “life of poverty” as with some Fransican orders or you are a nun (comtemplative or otherwise) how could you do that? I still find it mind boggling to think about someone after a BA or MA or PhD, doing that, but they want you to be educated.
I remember Fr. Corapi mentioning quickly one night about getting a 6,000 gift from someone so he could go to the seminary in Rome…they accepted him but he couldn’t pay for it. Sometimes if you live in a richer area, there are people or organizations to help you, but nowadays, the loans are much greater than they were in the past, even for state schools. I do agree though the rules some have that if you leave your schooling, you have to pay them back for paying off the loans (or the part they did pay off) to discourage anyone from joining for the wrong reasons. (sad, but I’m sure it would happen)

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

How do they do that? If you are part of a parish, the stipend the archdiosise gives you? That wouldn’t be able to cover very much. You might be able to work it out, but some loans minimum is 200.00+ for the amounts I mentioned earlier.

Yes it is rather a hard thing to do.

And from what I heard the other night on the vocation show, that is only with diocean priests, if you live a “life of poverty” as with some Fransican orders or you are a nun (comtemplative or otherwise) how could you do that? I still find it mind boggling to think about someone after a BA or MA or PhD, doing that, but they want you to be educated.

Some religious orders will accept no candidates who have outstanding student loans. They require the student loans to be paid off before entry into formation. Others will assume the student loan as they are going to be paying for the rest of the education.

Some orders go so far a saying that a man must be under the age of 35 with a bachelors degree and no debt (including student loans). I believe that those orders are killing themselves and also limiting the type of candidate that they will get.

I remember Fr. Corapi mentioning quickly one night about getting a 6,000 gift from someone so he could go to the seminary in Rome…they accepted him but he couldn’t pay for it. Sometimes if you live in a richer area, there are people or organizations to help you, but nowadays, the loans are much greater than they were in the past, even for state schools. I do agree though the rules some have that if you leave your schooling, you have to pay them back for paying off the loans (or the part they did pay off) to discourage anyone from joining for the wrong reasons. (sad, but I’m sure it would happen)

Yes it does. Still some do it because even though they have to pay off a student loan later they get free room and board while they are attending school.

 

[debraran]

There aren’t any easy answers I’m afraid. I don’t think going straight into a seminary from high school is a good idea but getting an education “free” is almost impossible. Years ago, priests had very little money to pay off and the church was “richer” and had less to pay out. Providence College, which is affilitated with the Dominican parish I belong too is 35-40.000 a year! That is becoming the average tuition across the USA. Our state college is 17,600 this year…we just can’t pay very much without loans and grants and not doing anything else, no vacations, extras, etc. If we had a very large family, I don’t know what we would do, 3 is daunting enough. You get aid, but with the rising costs of tuition and everything else, it’s never enough for the average student. And for those without a strong calling at 18, you can’t say, “stay home and go to school because in 4 years you might want to enter the priesthood.” I know my son had thoughts about it, but pushed them away for now and knows it would be a “long haul” as he put it, with already 7500. to pay off and 2 years to go.
It’s sad that some students will be discouraged from any thought of the priesthood or entering a womens order because of money, but the church is hurting. I’ll keep this aspect in my prayers too…