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palmas85
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A further taste of the same article which to me speaks volumes.
**In Churches where Priests look and act like lay people, where quiet meditation and spiritual chanting have been replaced by organs and the theatre, where pews dull our senses and cater to our bodies, where physical preparation for an encounter with the divine (fasting, prostrations, etc.) is inadequate—is it not exactly here that we find Pentecostal emotionalism spreading like fire among the simple Faithful and the unfulfilled believers? We need not even answer the question.
In fact, the Orthodox Church is ever renewed by the Presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit in its services, their mystical content, when properly and completely performed, transforming the soul and transcending the senses and emotions. And when we strive, as true Orthodox Christians, not to babble and throw ourselves into unseemly emotional fits, but to reach up to Christ through the established methods of the Orthodox Church (quiet meditation, fasting, standing, proper posture, proper breathing, etc.), we grow in Grace, finding always within us the subtle, elusive comfort of the Holy Spirit—a quiet whisper or wind, not a loud, ugly gale. But this true, subtle growth in the Spirit demands work and sacrifice from us—a true sacrifice of turning from the world, from creature comforts, from the din of emotional religion, from the realm of man. And it is because true birth in the Holy Spirit is so profound and such a task that so many turn to the easy world of evangelical shouting and arrogant affirmations of “re-births”, “gifts,” and “renewals,” mocking the Holy Spirit in its quiet whispers to the human heart.
As for those who misinterpret, twist, and rearrange the words of the Fathers (especially St. Symeon the New Theologian) and thereby try to support their charismatic goals from within the Orthodox Church, let them think about this: At no time in the history of Orthodoxy—in a history of almost two thousand years—did the Faithful or the Fathers ever throw their hands frantically in the air, babbling, interrupting the chanting, and declaring the Church to have anything but the pleroma, or fullness, of the Holy Spirit. Never! Never!
Our Fathers raised the dead. They cured the ill. They ascended into the Heavenly Realm and conversed with angels. They went to speak to those who spoke another tongue and found that, without having learned that tongue, they could preach to the people. (This evangelical gift, which allowed the Apostles to spread the message of Christianity, was present in the Early Church. St. Paul even warns those who have it not to cause confusion, but, in order to be consistent with the purpose of the gift—that of witnessing to the Faith—, to use the gift only if interpretation is available.) Our Fathers were so united with the power of things spiritual, that often their flesh was infused with the Spirit, their bodies failing to corrupt after death. YET, never once did the Fathers babble senselessly in tongues, let alone in the midst of the liturgy. Never did they conduct themselves in the manner of the modern charismatics. We can only conclude, then, that this movement is a demonic ruse, an attempt to fulfill our Orthodox longing for the fullness of Church Tradition with the emotional frenzy of Pentecostal sectarian pietism.
There is nothing Orthodox about the charismatic movement. It is incompatible with Orthodoxy, in that it justifies itself only by perverting the message of the Fathers, suggesting that the Church of Christ needs renewal, and indulging in the theological imagery of, Pentecostal cultism. With such things, one cannot be too bold in his language of condemnation and reprobation.
As for those caught in the web of the charismatic movement, under no circumstances are we justified if we condemn them. Those who imagine themselves saved by all of this are victims of a demonic arrogance which blinds them to true evangelical humility, which often serves certain personality deficits, and which, more often than not, convinces them inwardly of their own salvation—indeed, a dangerous thing. We must reach out to these people with charitable words, constantly assuring them that the Orthodox Church has a fullness which is not yet realized in America. Within that fullness, we must tell them, rests a true spiritual treasure, not a dull stone glimmering with the polish of deceit and emotionalism. And then, to be sure, we must set about restoring the fullness of the Church’s traditions, admitting readily that WE, not the Church, have lacked fullness!
**
I don’t agree with the Orthodox on many issues, but in this analysis they are dead on target.
**In Churches where Priests look and act like lay people, where quiet meditation and spiritual chanting have been replaced by organs and the theatre, where pews dull our senses and cater to our bodies, where physical preparation for an encounter with the divine (fasting, prostrations, etc.) is inadequate—is it not exactly here that we find Pentecostal emotionalism spreading like fire among the simple Faithful and the unfulfilled believers? We need not even answer the question.
In fact, the Orthodox Church is ever renewed by the Presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit in its services, their mystical content, when properly and completely performed, transforming the soul and transcending the senses and emotions. And when we strive, as true Orthodox Christians, not to babble and throw ourselves into unseemly emotional fits, but to reach up to Christ through the established methods of the Orthodox Church (quiet meditation, fasting, standing, proper posture, proper breathing, etc.), we grow in Grace, finding always within us the subtle, elusive comfort of the Holy Spirit—a quiet whisper or wind, not a loud, ugly gale. But this true, subtle growth in the Spirit demands work and sacrifice from us—a true sacrifice of turning from the world, from creature comforts, from the din of emotional religion, from the realm of man. And it is because true birth in the Holy Spirit is so profound and such a task that so many turn to the easy world of evangelical shouting and arrogant affirmations of “re-births”, “gifts,” and “renewals,” mocking the Holy Spirit in its quiet whispers to the human heart.
As for those who misinterpret, twist, and rearrange the words of the Fathers (especially St. Symeon the New Theologian) and thereby try to support their charismatic goals from within the Orthodox Church, let them think about this: At no time in the history of Orthodoxy—in a history of almost two thousand years—did the Faithful or the Fathers ever throw their hands frantically in the air, babbling, interrupting the chanting, and declaring the Church to have anything but the pleroma, or fullness, of the Holy Spirit. Never! Never!
Our Fathers raised the dead. They cured the ill. They ascended into the Heavenly Realm and conversed with angels. They went to speak to those who spoke another tongue and found that, without having learned that tongue, they could preach to the people. (This evangelical gift, which allowed the Apostles to spread the message of Christianity, was present in the Early Church. St. Paul even warns those who have it not to cause confusion, but, in order to be consistent with the purpose of the gift—that of witnessing to the Faith—, to use the gift only if interpretation is available.) Our Fathers were so united with the power of things spiritual, that often their flesh was infused with the Spirit, their bodies failing to corrupt after death. YET, never once did the Fathers babble senselessly in tongues, let alone in the midst of the liturgy. Never did they conduct themselves in the manner of the modern charismatics. We can only conclude, then, that this movement is a demonic ruse, an attempt to fulfill our Orthodox longing for the fullness of Church Tradition with the emotional frenzy of Pentecostal sectarian pietism.
There is nothing Orthodox about the charismatic movement. It is incompatible with Orthodoxy, in that it justifies itself only by perverting the message of the Fathers, suggesting that the Church of Christ needs renewal, and indulging in the theological imagery of, Pentecostal cultism. With such things, one cannot be too bold in his language of condemnation and reprobation.
As for those caught in the web of the charismatic movement, under no circumstances are we justified if we condemn them. Those who imagine themselves saved by all of this are victims of a demonic arrogance which blinds them to true evangelical humility, which often serves certain personality deficits, and which, more often than not, convinces them inwardly of their own salvation—indeed, a dangerous thing. We must reach out to these people with charitable words, constantly assuring them that the Orthodox Church has a fullness which is not yet realized in America. Within that fullness, we must tell them, rests a true spiritual treasure, not a dull stone glimmering with the polish of deceit and emotionalism. And then, to be sure, we must set about restoring the fullness of the Church’s traditions, admitting readily that WE, not the Church, have lacked fullness!
**
I don’t agree with the Orthodox on many issues, but in this analysis they are dead on target.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Thanks for the link cyberwolf. And I --as palmas85–found what the Orthodox had to say on this issue— right on the mark.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
I also agree it seems the more Orthodox (okay bad try at a pun) the Catholic parish is the more the Charismatic movement dies in that region.
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SenorSalsa
Guest
Mordocai,
while I may not agree with everything about the Charismatic movement, I would like to thank you for typing out intelligent, articulate posts that do not simply devolve into “im right, youre wrong”, but actually argue your case with reasons.
And also for ignoring the posts that come in to do just the opposite, and are simply drive-by insults
while I may not agree with everything about the Charismatic movement, I would like to thank you for typing out intelligent, articulate posts that do not simply devolve into “im right, youre wrong”, but actually argue your case with reasons.
And also for ignoring the posts that come in to do just the opposite, and are simply drive-by insults
O
onmyknees
Guest
I agree with GerardP I have been to these charismatic healing groups where the lay people pray over you and speak in tongues. I think a lot of them have let there pride get to them. They say things like I can discern your spirit or I can heal you. They actually teach them how to speak in tongues in some places. They do think that they don’t need a priest because they have their own gifts.I do think that some people have these special gifts but it is not that common. I pray to the Holy Spirit all the time when I need help just like I ask Jesus, Mary and the saints to help me. When we are baptized and confirmed we receive many graces to help us use the gifts given to us by the Holy Spirit. Many people do not use these graces for different reasons. A very orthodox priest suggested reading “Authenticity” A Biblical Theology of Discernment by Thomas Dubay.
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Mordocai
Guest
Guys, your posts are great and very helpful!
They remind me of the need for discernment. At a place I was at for some time, someone reminded me that discernment was supposed to take place by the priest and this never took place. People would get up and give “words” which sometimes really connected, and hard. And othertimes, perhaps were just pious words.
However, I still will not say that this invalidates the whole charismatic movement! I myself began my spiritual journey in a very traditional way and spent much time before the Blessed Sacrament, after being prayed over that one day and experiencing a newer level of faith and intimacy with God, I began to pray more, and a thirst for Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament ensued.
However, what I am saying, and just to gather up everything that I’ve been saying and the other posters, is this. We need to have a Church open to all the charisms. We can all agree on that. However, charity needs to bring this about, it is the work of the Holy Spirit.
First we need to get people fired up about their Catholic Faith in the first place. I think the charismatics do a great job of this. It is hard to join a Church sometimes when no one seems excited about it (this is the reason some of my protestant friends won’t join. I even had one tell me, “O i know its the original Church, I just dont like your worship”
So, the “experience” is important to a lot of people. Our priest mentioned the “theophany” this morning in the homily, Peter James and John at the transfiguration had a theophany.
What I guess I would ask though is that traditionalists not knock the charismatics (at least the authentic ones meaning those not deceived. because in reality, all of us are decieved in some ways since we still sin, maybe some charismatic folk are just deceived in more visible ways)
I would agree with probably everyone here that it is not about the “experience”
I’ve prayed for those in the past, never got 'em! We need to pray for the grace to be satisfied with God’s grace and to accept faith hope and love as God’s instruments of sanctification.
Whoever said traditionalism is not a movement, but a stance, i liked that.
It just seems so hard to convince someone of the beauty of tradition rather than seeing the fire exuding from the charismatics.
Does that make sense? So my whole question is this thread (which if possible I’d like to continue to discuss) is WHERE is the proper balance? To put it more bluntly, where’s the true path wherein one takes in EVERYTHING Holy Mother Church offers?
Is liturgical abuse ever ‘ok’ simply because the priest feels moved? What if he is a very holy, wise Priest (i’ve encountered this a lot)
I think it all needs to start from the pulpit, preaching in a convincing, powerful and charitable way about the truths of our faith. If they leave, they leave for a reason. But if they leave, at least they leave because they know what the Church teaches rather than staying and not knowing anything.
Peace and God Bless, Mary Keep
Mordocai
They remind me of the need for discernment. At a place I was at for some time, someone reminded me that discernment was supposed to take place by the priest and this never took place. People would get up and give “words” which sometimes really connected, and hard. And othertimes, perhaps were just pious words.
However, I still will not say that this invalidates the whole charismatic movement! I myself began my spiritual journey in a very traditional way and spent much time before the Blessed Sacrament, after being prayed over that one day and experiencing a newer level of faith and intimacy with God, I began to pray more, and a thirst for Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament ensued.
However, what I am saying, and just to gather up everything that I’ve been saying and the other posters, is this. We need to have a Church open to all the charisms. We can all agree on that. However, charity needs to bring this about, it is the work of the Holy Spirit.
First we need to get people fired up about their Catholic Faith in the first place. I think the charismatics do a great job of this. It is hard to join a Church sometimes when no one seems excited about it (this is the reason some of my protestant friends won’t join. I even had one tell me, “O i know its the original Church, I just dont like your worship”
So, the “experience” is important to a lot of people. Our priest mentioned the “theophany” this morning in the homily, Peter James and John at the transfiguration had a theophany.
What I guess I would ask though is that traditionalists not knock the charismatics (at least the authentic ones meaning those not deceived. because in reality, all of us are decieved in some ways since we still sin, maybe some charismatic folk are just deceived in more visible ways)
I would agree with probably everyone here that it is not about the “experience”
I’ve prayed for those in the past, never got 'em! We need to pray for the grace to be satisfied with God’s grace and to accept faith hope and love as God’s instruments of sanctification.
Whoever said traditionalism is not a movement, but a stance, i liked that.
It just seems so hard to convince someone of the beauty of tradition rather than seeing the fire exuding from the charismatics.
Does that make sense? So my whole question is this thread (which if possible I’d like to continue to discuss) is WHERE is the proper balance? To put it more bluntly, where’s the true path wherein one takes in EVERYTHING Holy Mother Church offers?
Is liturgical abuse ever ‘ok’ simply because the priest feels moved? What if he is a very holy, wise Priest (i’ve encountered this a lot)
I think it all needs to start from the pulpit, preaching in a convincing, powerful and charitable way about the truths of our faith. If they leave, they leave for a reason. But if they leave, at least they leave because they know what the Church teaches rather than staying and not knowing anything.
Peace and God Bless, Mary Keep
Mordocai
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Miles_Mariae
Guest
Preaching the Truth is good. Why would there need to be liturgical abuse for that to happen?
M
Mordocai
Guest
Say the black, do the red.
Preach the truth!
Got it.
Preach the truth!
Got it.
M
Miles_Mariae
Guest
Save the Liturgy, save the world
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