Children innocent from birth? Comparing religions.

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Jash said:
I’m just curious. LDS doctrine says children are innocent and covered by the atonement of Christ. What do other faiths (Catholic, Protestant, etc) believe?

Please note I am posting this thread merely for comparison of religions regarding this belief. Feel free to correct a statement from your own religion if you feel it is false or misleading but If you want to argue whose religion is right please take it to another thread. Thanks
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The Baptist church I was raised in taught that a child was innocent until he or she reached an age of accountability. This is why they practiced an adult “believer’s” baptism (by immersion in the trinitarian form).

ddc

ddc
 
I really think you ought to differentiate between “original guilt” (a punishment for Adam’s transgression) and “original sin” (a disorder due to the lack of the grace God chose to gift His creatures created beings and that Adam lost for all at his transgression). It seems that some believe that the Church teaches “original guilt” yet they are not the same and the concept of “original sin” does not presuppose that children are not innocent–just that all men have concupisence (abnormally strong desire to do one’s own will instead of God’s) because of Adam’s willful transgression.

Oh, you’ll find the Eastern mindset does not hold to “original sin” (but then again, IMO, there seems to be a confusion between “original guilt” and “original sin”.) I think that this may be due to the fact that they just accepted the need for infant Baptism so they never had to define “original sin” the way the western Church had to.
 
The Baptist church I was raised in taught that a child was innocent until he or she reached an age of accountability. This is why they practiced an adult “believer’s” baptism (by immersion in the trinitarian form).

ddc
 
What does this Talmudic teaching mean:

Abhodah Zarah, 22b:

“Why are the Goim unclean? Because they were not present at Mount Sinai. For when the serpent entered into Eve he infused her with uncleanness. But the Jews were cleansed from this when they stood on Mount Sinai; the Goim, however, who were not on Mount Sinaim were not cleansed.”
 
ibkc said:
Not according to over a hundred years of statements by your “prophets”. If you guys truly believed we are all born without sin then there never would have been any racist doctrine of the mark of Cain.
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Please provide a reference in our material to that doctrine. If your going to make a statement about what our doctrine is provide support. You don’t see me defining catholic doctrine.
 
Jash said:
Please provide a reference in our material to that doctrine. If your going to make a statement about what our doctrine is provide support. You don’t see me defining catholic doctrine.
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**
** 2 NEPHI 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.
Code: 
    JOSPEH FIELDING SMITH
    Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 65-66. 
             There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides         either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men         receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will         receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro,         evidently, is receiving the reward he merits.
pg. 61.
There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.
Juvenile Instructor, vol. 26, p. 635
It is very clear that the mark which was set upon the descendants of Cain was a skin of blackness…It has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom His blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extent as to excite the comments of all who have known them.
BRIGHAM YOUNG
Journal of Discourses Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.
Vol. 7, pg. 290-291
Cain slew his brother. . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.
You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race–that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed.
JOHN TAYLOR
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, pg. 304. And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Hams’ wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representative upon the earth as well as God.
Millennial Star, Vol. 14, pg. 418.
For instance, the descendants of Cain cannot cast off their skin of blackness, at once, and immediately, although every soul of them should repent,…Cain and his posterity must wear the mark which God put upon them; and his white friends may wash the race of Cain with fuller’s soap every day, they cannot wash away God’s mark.

"Racial degeneration, resulting in differences in appearance and spiritual aptitude, has arisen since the fall. We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later of Ham) were born with the characteristics of the black race. (Moses 5:16-41; 7:8,12,22; Abra. 1:20-27.) The Book of Mormon explains why the Lamanites received dark skins and a degenerate status. (2 Ne. 5:21-23.) If we had a full and true history of all races and nations, we would know the origins of all their distinctive characteristics. In the absence of such detailed information, however, we know only the general principle that all these changes from the physical and spiritual perfections of our common parents have been brought about by departure from the gospel truths.

(Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 148-151; vol. 3, pp. 313-326.)" (Mormon Doctrine 1999 printing, p. 616)
 
Jash said:
I am suprised at how much of what you have said is similar to what I believe (LDS)…
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Smith and Muhammad were visited by an angel…but seems these 2 angels did not agree on everything 😛
 
Bump.

So Jash: how can it be said that Mormons think all babies are born innocent when LDS doctrine clearly says that all non-white peoples are that way because of some transgression (either by their forebears, or in a pre-existance) against “gospel truths”? If everyone is indeed born innocent in the LDS view, how come we are all not “white and delightsome” at birth?
 
**Since the question of Children innocence is linked with the original sin only and nothing else therefore we need to address the original sin.

Adam did not sin.The Dare devil (Satan) did sin. Adam forgot to comply to the command of God. He did not intentionally disobey. he was led into it. Please remember that even today, in law matters, the intention or motive is always taken into account.

Everything points to the fact that Adam did not sin. He was cheated. He was misled by the Satan.

Further to his good work ( I do not know about it in bible but it is in the Quran), when God questioned as to his disobediance, Adam admitted his fault and asked for fogiveness. What else could be good in his favor. He repented. All that shows it was no sin.

Consider the Dare devil (Satan). He was ordered to bow down to Adam. He refused. No one misled him. He disobeyed God by his own intent. When he was questioned about his bad deed, he argued and said that he was right. That God was wrong in asking him to bow before Adam. That he was superior to Adam. Please note all his ideas. That was rebellious attitude. Devil opposed God and even objected to the selection of God giving Adam superiority over all other creation.

This topic cannot be settled unless one reads the Quran. In the bible, there is very little about it all.

So since there is no original sin, the children are also not sinners**.
 
planten said:
Adam did not sin. He was cheated. He was misled by the Satan.
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Looks like there is a question about what is meant by the concept “sin”. It also looks like there is a misunderstanding of what “original sin” is.

Let’s see, let’s look at the account in Genesis. God gave Adam many, many gifts (friendship with God?) that he would later be able to pass on to descendants. God tells Adam to cultivate (dress) and preserve and protect (keep) the garden. He gave Adam Eve as a helpmate. Adam declared that they were one. (Not surprising, husbands and wives are helpmates and become one flesh and that is where we get marriage concept that husband and wife “cleave to one another”.) And, of course, Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. They both knew God’s will.

Enter the devil, the father of lies. He did in fact tempt Eve, but Eve not only knew God’s will and did hers anyway, but Adam was right there and never acted to protect her. Instead, he too eats the fruit, knowing full well that God had told him not to. And with that eating, both were ashamed and then tried to blame each other and God himself! Obviously, they could no longer live in the Garden with God (“without holiness, no one will see the Lord” Hebrews 12:14). As head of the family, Adam lost the gifts God had gifted Adam with and so did we (it’s only logical, if you no longer have an item, you can’t “give” it to another), and so IMO, “original sin” is not about whether a child does or does not do God’s will (is or is not “punished” because his ancestor chose not to do God’s will). It’s about recognizing the child’s lack of the gifts that should have been his, but aren’t now because Adam, our forefather, no longer had them to pass on.

It doesn’t take a reading of the Quran to see it.
 
ibkc said:
Bump.

So Jash: how can it be said that Mormons think all babies are born innocent when LDS doctrine clearly says that all non-white peoples are that way because of some transgression (either by their forebears, or in a pre-existance) against “gospel truths”? If everyone is indeed born innocent in the LDS view, how come we are all not “white and delightsome” at birth?
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Color has nothing to do with innocence within LDS Doctrine. I have read your quotes and can find nothing to support them within LDS scripture, manuals, or conference addresses save the 2nd Nephi reference. While it is true that the Lord did mark the Lamanites with darker skin the purpose was to try to keep those who were in unbelief separate from the Nephites. The Lamanites were merely wicked because of the traditions and teachings of their fathers. As is evidenced by the story of the Anti-Nephi-Lehi’s later in the book of Alma righteousness is a matter of choosing to follow god not skin color.
 
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