Children's liturgy of the word

[CB_Catholic]

That’s good - keep questioning.
Unfortunately, on this particular topic, there are no published answers. What I mean is, I’ve been asking for the last 8 years about the efficacy of the program across the country. I want to see if there is a correlation between children who attended CLW, then their participation in Mass as teenagers and then as adults. It would seem no one’s really looked at this. What we have is anecdotal information - many, many kids who did CLW as kids in the 90’s and 2000’s no longer go to Mass – but we certainly cannot say CLW is the cause of their lack of participation.

What we do know is those of us who were kids in the 70’s and 80’s who stayed in Mass heard and remember the readings and the language used. We heard things like “transubstatiation” - but that’s a word that’s been removed from the language used to teach children in CLW, and, we heading the readings often enough that we can recall the language now decades later – because it was not dumbed down for us.

While I have zero supporting data at this point, I think CLW dumbs down the message too much so we’re not giving kids credit for knowing much (and many are way smarter at age 6 than we were!). It makes Mass about “entertainment” and does nothing to teach kids how to behave in Mass since they are removed. It also stresses the humanistic - like how Jesus is our brother - but removes the transcendent. Those aspects should be balanced IMHO. In other research I have seen, this lack of the transcendent is often cited by adults in their 30-50’s for why they no longer attend Mass - they no longer see it as something special or unique. One lady said, “I can no longer find the holy . . .” So, if CLW is taking away the holy for our little kids, I’d think it would be a very bad idea. There is no reason why even very young children cannot come to Mass.

You cannot draw a connection between CLW and who goes to Mass and won’t be able to, because just as many kids who attended Catholic schools and CCD classes quit going to Mass once they were out of school. Only about 1/3 of Catholics attend Mass regularly, and probably most of these did NOT attend CLW because it was not around. Also, Catholic education in the 70’s and 80"s was abysmal. I cannot believe all the kids who went to Mass remembered the readings. Most adults don’t. I raised children at that time, and it was definitely not the case among my children and their friends that they even paid attention to Mass.

CLW is not preparation for First Communion. The word “transubstantiation” was not used in Biblical times. You should not have heard it in Biblical readings. The CLW is about teaching these kids to learn the Bible and how to apply it (as it is for adults) to their lives, in a simplified form. Not using a word like “transubstantiation” is not talking down to them. Most adults can’t get a grip on it, let alone K-2. Give them what is appropriate. This is not CCD class.

Also, by that age, they should already know how to behave in Mass. They aren’t infants and toddlers, they are in school already and have learned to behave. I never see kids of this age disrupting Mass. A 2nd grader who doesn’t behave in Mass probably has more going on in his life than that. That is not a reasonable argument.

I have seen the materials used in CLW. No, it is not humanistic. Jesus IS our brother. He told us that. But they are also taught He is God. And how could CLW be taking away the holy? Learning the Bible and God’s laws takes away the holy? And no, K-2nd graders don’t know much. They are still in the learning process. That is perfectly normal. I have grandkids who attended CLW. They did fine, they are familiar with the Bible, and are very active in their Church youth groups.

Personally, I don’t think your objections have much actual merit–they are pure speculation on your part. Now if you can come up with some actual PROOF it is harmful other than extrapolating from something that you think to the whole Catholic population, it would be a different story. But your arguments do not make sense for a CLW.

 

[tuffsmurf]

I don’t see any problem with CLW for children under the age of 7. Have you ever seen a toddler actually listening to the readings?

 

[Suslar]

Personally, I don’t think your objections have much actual merit–they are pure speculation on your part.

Thanks for your reply Carolyn. Yes, I said in my post that one cannot draw too many conclusions or claim causality between CLW/ Catholic schools/ CCD/ Rel Ed and future faith practices – at least not yet as data does not exist. I’m currently conducting research on Generation X for my dissertation – we did not have CLW, but did have Catholics schools and CCD – and women of my generation are the ones reporting lowest Mass attendance. Yep, religious ed for us was basically non-existent – even in Catholic schools. We learned “Jesus loves you” and absolutely no catechism or Church history. But we did hear the same readings at Sunday Mass and repetition did wonders for recall, esp when reinforced at home.

Of course CLW is NOT 1st Communion Prep – it is not designed to be so and I certainly did not make that claim. Still, the word “transubstantiation” has been removed from 1st Communion prep and from Catholic school religion programs. No, it’s not a Scriptural word – again, not sure why you’re bringing it up as I did not say it was Biblical. But it is a foundational word and one children and adults can understand. It is totally appropriate to describe the word to kids – especially in conjunction with celebrations during the liturgical year such as Corpus Christi. It is likely that the reason some adults cannot handle the word is because they never heard it as children and might be afraid to ask what it means. In researching adults, many stopped their faith formation after 1st Communion or after Confirmation. So, there are many adults out there with an 8 year old’s understanding of the Faith. If they never heard foundational words before they stopped their formal education in the Faith, how would they know those words as adults?

CLW came into being in the 90’s in many parishes and repeats that basic message “Jesus loves you” (which absolutely HE does!!!) but without much substance according to anecdotal reports I’ve collected from all over the country. Note, that is not my personal commentary – but that collected from all over the country. Some parishes have children from ages 5-10 attend. Some have children under age 8 or 10. Some have ages 3-7. Some places leave it open to whoever wants to go. It varies widely from place to place, so your comments about the kids in CLW would be based only on your observation in your parish and the ages you have attend – not universally applicable, but your experience.

I too have researched materials used in CLW. It is humanistic. Yes, Jesus is our brother – I’m not doubting that. But there is very little emphasis on the transcendent. The same is true for materials currently used in Catholic school and rel ed programs – depending on the publication house. And sometimes, depending on the parish, the same is true for the emphasis placed on the Mass – if it balances the humanistic and transcendent or leans more toward one of the other. In general, religious ed programs at all levels (incl adults) within a parish are reflective of how the Mass is celebrated in that parish. Lex orandi, lex credendi .

So, as I said in my post – no, there is not much research out there – at least not yet. So of course there is no proof. Likewise, Carolyn, your comments are just more anecdotal info – without any proof or substantiation or inclusion of outside influencing factors. Yes, they are speculation – because there has been no long-term research or case studies undertaken yet as I said. So without supporting evidence, how can you claim CLW is good for anyone? All you provided was your bias (that you like the program) and your anecdotal info about grandkids. Can you provide proof that it is leading to long term Faith formation in our children or having any long-term positive impact?

It would be wise for us all to think this thru. Is there a reason no long-term research into the topic has been done? Are we just tolerating CLW or actively promoting it because we think the kids “feel good” or because it seem “right”? Why would any parish do that without understanding if it has longterm benefit or not? As the OP said, it’s good to keep questioning.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Personally, I don’t think your objections have much actual merit–they are pure speculation on your part.

Thanks for your reply Carolyn. Yes, I said in my post that one cannot draw too many conclusions or claim causality between CLW/ Catholic schools/ CCD/ Rel Ed and future faith practices – at least not yet as data does not exist. I’m currently conducting research on Generation X for my dissertation – we did not have CLW, but did have Catholics schools and CCD – and women of my generation are the ones reporting lowest Mass attendance. Yep, religious ed for us was basically non-existent – even in Catholic schools. We learned “Jesus loves you” and absolutely no catechism or Church history. But we did hear the same readings at Sunday Mass and repetition did wonders for recall, esp when reinforced at home.

Of course CLW is NOT 1st Communion Prep – it is not designed to be so and I certainly did not make that claim. Still, the word “transubstantiation” has been removed from 1st Communion prep and from Catholic school religion programs. No, it’s not a Scriptural word – again, not sure why you’re bringing it up as I did not say it was Biblical. But it is a foundational word and one children and adults can understand. It is totally appropriate to describe the word to kids – especially in conjunction with celebrations during the liturgical year such as Corpus Christi. It is likely that the reason some adults cannot handle the word is because they never heard it as children and might be afraid to ask what it means. In researching adults, many stopped their faith formation after 1st Communion or after Confirmation. So, there are many adults out there with an 8 year old’s understanding of the Faith. If they never heard foundational words before they stopped their formal education in the Faith, how would they know those words as adults?

CLW came into being in the 90’s in many parishes and repeats that basic message “Jesus loves you” (which absolutely HE does!!!) but without much substance according to anecdotal reports I’ve collected from all over the country. Note, that is not my personal commentary – but that collected from all over the country. Some parishes have children from ages 5-10 attend. Some have children under age 8 or 10. Some have ages 3-7. Some places leave it open to whoever wants to go. It varies widely from place to place, so your comments about the kids in CLW would be based only on your observation in your parish and the ages you have attend – not universally applicable, but your experience.

I too have researched materials used in CLW. It is humanistic. Yes, Jesus is our brother – I’m not doubting that. But there is very little emphasis on the transcendent. The same is true for materials currently used in Catholic school and rel ed programs – depending on the publication house. And sometimes, depending on the parish, the same is true for the emphasis placed on the Mass – if it balances the humanistic and transcendent or leans more toward one of the other. In general, religious ed programs at all levels (incl adults) within a parish are reflective of how the Mass is celebrated in that parish. Lex orandi, lex credendi .

So, as I said in my post – no, there is not much research out there – at least not yet. So of course there is no proof. Likewise, Carolyn, your comments are just more anecdotal info – without any proof or substantiation or inclusion of outside influencing factors. Yes, they are speculation – because there has been no long-term research or case studies undertaken yet as I said. So without supporting evidence, how can you claim CLW is good for anyone? All you provided was your bias (that you like the program) and your anecdotal info about grandkids. Can you provide proof that it is leading to long term Faith formation in our children or having any long-term positive impact?

It would be wise for us all to think this thru. Is there a reason no long-term research into the topic has been done? Are we just tolerating CLW or actively promoting it because we think the kids “feel good” or because it seem “right”? Why would any parish do that without understanding if it has longterm benefit or not? As the OP said, it’s good to keep questioning.

You and I are not going to agree on this, and frankly, I don’t see what the big deal is in having children learn the readings at an age appropriate level. Yes, I provided my experience to show that despite your negative view and bias, there are other experiences than your opinion. I in no way have tried to say my experience was universal or draw any speculation and conclusion from it. Since my parish has had extensive experience with it for many, many years, they know what long term benefit has come from it. It is perfectly legitimate for them to claim it has been of benefit to them. I see no point to spending the time and money on a long term research project on something like this. If it works in a parish, it works. If it truly doesn’t, don’t use it. But don’t come up with pure speculation on it as an excuse not to use it. We don’t just actively tolerate it. My Pastor does not waste parish resources on things that don’t benefit the parish, and I doubt many Pastors do.

 

[Suslar]

You and I are not going to agree on this, and frankly, I don’t see what the big deal is in having children learn the readings at an age appropriate level. Yes, I provided my experience to show that despite your negative view and bias, there are other experiences than your opinion. I in no way have tried to say my experience was universal or draw any speculation and conclusion from it. Since my parish has had extensive experience with it for many, many years, they know what long term benefit has come from it. It is perfectly legitimate for them to claim it has been of benefit to them. I see no point to spending the time and money on a long term research project on something like this. If it works in a parish, it works. If it truly doesn’t, don’t use it. But don’t come up with pure speculation on it as an excuse not to use it. We don’t just actively tolerate it. My Pastor does not waste parish resources on things that don’t benefit the parish, and I doubt many Pastors do.

What’s with all your venom, Carolyn? I don’t have a negative view or any bias. I simply asked if there was any logical proof or evidence of any kind that the program was fruitful or could be considered successful in building future disciples or helping children become eager to learn more and grow in faith. From the thousands of responses gathered so far, the overwhelming answer is that it does nothing to impact future participation in the Church.

Frankly, one of the big questions about CLW is whether or not the lessons are actually at an age appropriate level. For a child who comes to Mass once in awhile, perhaps so, but for a child who is learning from a rigorous course of study at home or in a good Catholic school, probably not.

As I posted, yes, there are tons of opinions just like yours – but no facts. Likewise, you did not provide facts of any kind. That’s great that you think your parish has seen some benefit. How is that qualified or quantified? How do you describe the benefit? Is the benefit purely speculation? Again, it is your opinion that there should not be research done – but you do not speak for the Universal Church and you do not decide whether CLW continues in other parishes so why do you care? It doesn’t negate your opinion, but it certainly would not stop anyone from researching the topic. I’m not sure why you are pouncing on me when the first page of this thread is filled with comments that are negative about CLW. But since you are a stranger, and your opinion is completely unsupported by facts, it means little to me and only supports my post – that there is no evidence of longterm success with CLW and developing lifelong Catholics. We don’t have to agree and I still wish you well. Glad you think your program is so great. Other parishes cannot validate any long term benefit.

 

[commenter]

Some parishes have children from ages 5-10 attend. Some have children under age 8 or 10. Some have ages 3-7. Some places leave it open to whoever wants to go. It varies widely from place to place…

Children who have made their First Communion should be at the regular Mass, with possible exceptions for Special Needs persons.

When I was leading it, we had 2 books:
the Lectionary for Masses with Children, which never mentions anything about bringing children out of the Mass, to another room; clearly it is designed for use in church; for the Children’s Mass.

and the text by Treehaus, (which had an anti-supernatural, politically correct, anti-dogma, horizontal spin). This book also offered alternate readings for each Sunday, which we could choose if we wanted to. This book had an Imprimatur, which only means it does not teach heresy, not that the Church recommends it.

The Treehaus book never actually says or assumes that the person using the book is a layperson. For all they know, it might be a priest or deacon using the book; or for all they know, it might be used as part of a CCD class, where the children study the readings on Saturday that they will hear in church at Mass, on Sunday. This is the loophole how they get around the liturgical norms, that only a priest or deacon can read the gospel and preach at Mass. They don’t exactly lie, but Treehaus knows full well people are using it to bring children out of the regular Mass for a time, that this is usually not a preparation but a substitute.