CHINA - RUSSIA - VATICAN - Hilarion's act: Russian Orthodox metropolitan meets Chinese excommunicated bishop [AN]

[Hesychios]

I always wondered if Orthodoxy would suit China better. I know the Communist party doesn’t want a Church who is under a foreign ruler such as the Pope who is also a head of state. An autocephalous Chinese Church would probably be agreeable to the Communist Party, do you think?

It is hard to set up. The government would allow it, but unfortunately the native priesthood was exterminated in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. If there were existing native bishops and priests the government would allow a synod, and such an arrangement as the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association would probably work. It could be called a Chinese Orthodox Patriotic Association. In theory it has already been approved in some way I am not sure of, but does not really function.

I know there have been a few (very few) native Chinese who have gone to Russia for seminary studies, but these are far too few to reestablish the church and as young men lacking experience might not make good bishops. They might be having a hard time getting back into the country too, I don’t know.

The government does not care about the beliefs (unless the beliefs advocate overthrow), they just want the church run by native believers from within the country. So the question is ‘can the church live within these operating parameters’. I think the Orthodox can.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It is hard to set up. The government would allow it, but unfortunately the native priesthood was exterminated in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. If there were existing native bishops and priests the government would allow a synod, and such an arrangement as the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association would probably work. It could be called a Chinese Orthodox Patriotic Association. In theory it has already been approved in some way I am not sure of, but does not really function.

I know there have been a few (very few) native Chinese who have gone to Russia for seminary studies, but these are far too few to reestablish the church and as young men lacking experience might not make good bishops. They might be having a hard time getting back into the country too, I don’t know.

The government does not care about the beliefs (unless the beliefs advocate overthrow), they just want the church run by native believers from within the country. So the question is ‘can the church live within these operating parameters’. I think the Orthodox can.

I know a lot of Chinese have taken to the Protestant faith. I’m not sure how big this is in China, but everywhere there are Chinese there are many Chinese bible churches. I wouldn’t be suprised especially with the growing modern heresy of the Prosperity Gospel which suits the Chinese pagan beliefs on prosperity (wealth) and luck, it is an easy transition for them.

As for the Orthodox, I guess the experience of being under communist rule in Eastern Europe can be something that people draw upon when growing the Church in China. I don’t know how the Chinese government will react to that. All I know is that one of the major reasons they do not like the Catholic Church is because the Pope is not Chinese and is also in fact a head of state. So the bishops are not only under a higher religious authority who’s a foreigner, but they are also under one who is a secular ruler.

I have to know also what is China’s issue about the Tibetan Monks and how it relates to the Christian landscape in China. While the Western world has been sympathetic to them, I knew a Chinese man once who said that the West shouldn’t be taking their side, that they do not know the real issue.

 

[Cavaradossi]

As for the Orthodox, I guess the experience of being under communist rule in Eastern Europe can be something that people draw upon when growing the Church in China. I don’t know how the Chinese government will react to that. All I know is that one of the major reasons they do not like the Catholic Church is because the Pope is not Chinese and is also in fact a head of state. So the bishops are not only under a higher religious authority who’s a foreigner, but they are also under one who is a secular ruler.

The Communist Chinese government has historically been at odds with the native Chinese Orthodox Church, because it was established by Russians centuries ago. I get the feeling that the Chinese government would not be open to the idea of officially recognizing a Chinese Orthodox Church, so long as this Church would be subjected to influences beyond the borders of China.

I have to know also what is China’s issue about the Tibetan Monks and how it relates to the Christian landscape in China. While the Western world has been sympathetic to them, I knew a Chinese man once who said that the West shouldn’t be taking their side, that they do not know the real issue.

In the minds of many Chinese people, at least, they believe that the Chinese invasion of Tibet was justified because it accomplished the liberation of the Tibetan people from the “tyrannical” rule of the Dalai Lamas. Furthermore, they believe that Tibet was their right to seize, because Tibet has had a long history of being either a protectorate, territory or vassal of China. Even my strongly anti-Communist, KMT-supporting family (my grandfather was ranked at what would be equivalent to something like a colonel in the KMT military) believes in this version of events to some extent. There is probably some truth to be found in that version of things, but it is of course, completely one-sided.

 

[Hesychios]

T
In the minds of many Chinese people, at least, they believe that the Chinese invasion of Tibet was justified because it accomplished the liberation of the Tibetan people from the “tyrannical” rule of the Dalai Lamas. Furthermore, they believe that Tibet was their right to seize, because Tibet has had a long history of being either a protectorate, territory or vassal of China. Even my strongly anti-Communist, KMT-supporting family (my grandfather was ranked at what would be equivalent to something like a colonel in the KMT military) believes in this version of events to some extent. There is probably some truth to be found in that version of things, but it is of course, completely one-sided.

Some Chinese I have met feel the same way.

From what I can tell, when the Mongols conquered China they also had hegemony over Tibet. A lot of people tend to see a map of Kubilai Khan’s empire and identify that with China. In the same way later, after the Manchu people conquered China they would think of Manchuria as part of China, not a foreign country.

The Manchu’s had an especially close relationship with Tibet, but I am not clear whether they ever considered themselves dominant over Tibet at that time. The Lamas had been placed in charge at some point by a more minor Mongol king.

Interestingly, there are two leading lamas at any one time: one is the spiritual leader and one is the political leader. The Dalai Lama is actually the political leader, not the spiritual leader of Tibet. This explains the conflict with the Chinese government. They are willing to allow the system to stand, but they want a ‘safe’ candidate in place.

The Chinese will do to Tibet what the USA has done to Hawaii. We do not have to like either outcome but there is little to be done about it.

I think the most persecuted group in China today is the Falun Gong. By comparison to the Falun Gong, Christianity is barely persecuted at all, it is regulated to a major extent but hardly persecuted.

During the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution all religious groups were attacked, the Buddhist and Daoist temples as much as the Christians, and most monastaries were ravaged, some burned. Daoism is known to be a native religion, but Buddhism and Christianity are recognized as having foreign origins, so this made them targets of the xenophobia which went wild at the time, on top of the general Marxist disdain for religion. All religious groups have had to make a long slow recovery since then.

Today it seems there is a mild interest, perhaps a curiosity, among the ordinary people about Christian religion. I found that the questions are not very deep, but not hostile either. Some people probably think it is quaint. From what I have heard the fasted growing Chistianity in China is house church protestantism. Churches which need a long time to develop clergy are at a real disadvantage.