Christ will never leave His Church????

[Bookcat]

Again you’ve divorced the church from members. The church IS body of Jesus. The members together make up the church.

No I have not. But it is important to distinguish. The fact that I sin today – is not to say “the Church sinned” – I, being a member of the Church yes sinned…and yes such can effect other members in the Church -just as my following Christ can effect them for the good. But it is my sin.

 

[Bookcat]

You also disregard that proclimation of the gospel goes hand in hand with qualification to do so, moral.

.

The qualification to do so is not necessarily moral --though certainly one ought to be living in Christ – and following him. But even those who are not - or who do so for some wrong reasons – Christ can still be proclaimed.

Paul expressly states that Christ gets preached even from envy and rivalry …seeking even to inflict Paul - but he says – either way Christ gets proclaimed.

Should Popes and other Christians be faithful to Christ always? Absolutely. Should faithful men be chosen for the various offices within the Church? Certainly. But if even if the Successor of Peter should fall into mortal sin – the office is held intact for it is the Promise of Christ…it is the Holy Spirit that is behind the authority etc.

Likewise even if my Pastor should have fallen into mortal sin before he baptizes my Child-- my Child is still Baptized – for it is Christ --it is the Holy Spirit who is at work.

 

[Bookcat]

A
Apsotolic succession justifies the continuance of sin in the church with the blessings of the gospel. This is exactly what christ did jot teach us in revelation.

Huh?

Not.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

So let’s say Jesus died and rose again and had never chosen apostles. And then he ascends into heaven.

Do we have a church?

No, for the RCC teaches the Church was established with the 12 apostles as the foundations to that Church, Peter being the chief stone.

Therefore you have people making up the “church”.

As the human beings become baptized, they are added “to the Church”. They are added to the human community. Without a human being there, there is no addition to the Church.

How are we to understand Church if we distinguish it from the members?

 

[Bookcat]

Over all the centuries back to the first – yes there have been those who have not lived well as Christians within the Catholic Church (even great sinners in need of great repentance)-- especially in particularly dark historical periods – having said that though – there have been countless numbers who have and who indeed have lived such in a glorious fashion! Even in the darker periods of history the Church has not lacked its very bright lights who followed the Lamb with even high heroic sanctity.

Christians of every kind – Popes, Bishops, married Christians, single Christians, children, Nuns, Monks, Friars, Priests, Hermits, Scholars, Confessors and Martyrs…

From the beginning one finds Christians who did not live as they ought…and one finds them in every epoch --it is not new. The New Testament notes this reality with in its pages.

Yet – The Church is Holy! Made up of saints and even Saints…

But at the same time yes she embraces sinners.

"While Christ, holy, innocent and undefiled knew nothing of sin…

… the Church, embracing in its bosom sinners, at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, always follows the way of penance and renewal." -Second Vatican Council – Lumen Gentium

 

[fbl9]

So let’s say Jesus died and rose again and had never chosen apostles. And then he ascends into heaven.

Do we have a church?

No, for the RCC teaches the Church was established with the 12 apostles as the foundations to that Church, Peter being the chief stone.

Therefore you have people making up the “church”.

As the human beings become baptized, they are added “to the Church”. They are added to the human community. Without a human being there, there is no addition to the Church.

How are we to understand Church if we distinguish it from the members?

Well Eric the countless various churches each teaching contradictions, proves your point.

 

[Bookcat]

3.1. The Mystery of the Church

“The Church is in history, but at the same time she transcends it. It is only ‘with the eyes of faith’ that one can see her in her visible reality and at the same time in her spiritual reality as bearer of divine life.”(43) The ensemble of her visible and historical aspects stands in relation to the divine gift in a way that is analogous to how, in the incarnate Word of God, the assumed humanity is sign and instrument of the action of the divine Person of the Son. The two dimensions of ecclesial being form “one complex reality resulting from a human and a divine element,”(44) in a communion that participates in the Trinitarian life and brings about baptized persons’ sense of being united among themselves despite historical differences of time and place. By the power of this communion, the Church presents herself as a subject that is absolutely unique in human affairs, able to take on the gifts, the merits, and the faults of her children of yesterday and today.

The telling analogy to the mystery of the incarnate Word implies too, nevertheless, a fundamental difference. “Christ, ‘holy, innocent, and undefiled’ (Heb 7:26), knew no sin (cf. 2 Cor 5:21), but came only to expiate the sins of the people (cf. Heb 2:17). The Church, however, embracing sinners in her bosom, is at the same time holy and always in need of purification and incessantly pursues the path of penance and renewal.”(45) The absence of sin in the Incarnate Word cannot be attributed to his ecclesial Body, within which, on the contrary, each person – participating in the grace bestowed by God – needs nevertheless to be vigilant and to be continually purified. Each member also shares in the weakness of others: “All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners (cf. 1 Jn 1:8-10). In everyone, the weeds of sin will still be mixed with the good wheat of the Gospel until the end of time (cf. Mt 13:24-30). Hence the Church gathers sinners already caught up in Christ’s salvation but still on the way to holiness.”(46)

Already Paul VI had solemnly affirmed that the Church “is holy, though she includes sinners in her bosom, for she herself has no other life but the life of grace… This is why she suffers and does penance for these faults, from which she has the power to free her children through the blood of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit.”(47) The Church in her “mystery” is thus the encounter of sanctity and of weakness, continually redeemed, and yet always in need of the power of redemption. As the liturgy – the true “lex credendi” – teaches, the individual Christian and the community of the saints implore God to look upon the faith of his church and not on the sins of individuals, which are the negation of this living faith: “Ne respicias peccata nostra, sed fidem Ecclesiae Tuae”! In the unity of the mystery of the Church through time and space, it is possible to consider the aspect of holiness, the need for repentance and reform, and their articulation in the actions of Mother Church.

 

[Bookcat]

3.2. The Holiness of the Church

The Church is holy because, sanctified by Christ who has acquired her by giving himself up to death for her, she is maintained in holiness by the Holy Spirit who pervades her unceasingly: “We believe that the Church…is indefectibly holy. For Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is praised as being ‘alone holy,’ loved the Church as his bride and gave himself up for her, so that she might be made holy (cf. Eph 5: 25), and has united her to himself as his body and has filled her with the gift of the Holy Spirit, to the glory of God. For this reason, everyone in the Church…is called to holiness.”(48) In this sense, from the beginning, the members of the Church are called the “saints” (cf. Acts 9:13; 1 Cor 6:1; 16:1). One can distinguish, however, the holiness of the Church from holiness in the Church. The former - founded on the missions of the Son and Spirit – guarantees the continuity of the mission of the People of God until the end of time and stimulates and aids the believers in pursuing subjective personal holiness. The form which holiness takes is rooted in the vocation that each one receives; it is given and required of him as the full completion of his own vocation and mission. Personal holiness is always directed toward God and others, and thus has an essentially social character: it is holiness “in the Church” oriented towards the good of all.

Holiness in the Church must therefore correspond to the holiness of the Church. “The followers of Christ, called by God not according to their works, but according to his own purpose and grace, and justified in the Lord Jesus, have been made truly children of God in the Baptism of faith and sharers in the divine nature, and thus are really made holy. They must therefore hold on to and perfect in their lives that sanctification which they have received from God.”(49) The baptized person is called to become with his entire existence that which he has already become by virtue of his baptismal consecration. And this does not happen without the consent of his freedom and the assistance of the grace that comes from God. No one becomes himself so fully as does the saint, who welcomes the divine plan and, with the help of grace, conforms his entire being to it! The saints are in this sense like lights kindled by the Lord in the midst of his Church in order to illuminate her; they are a prophecy for the whole world.

 

[Bookcat]

3.3 The Necessity of Continual Renewal

Without obscuring this holiness, we must acknowledge that due to the presence of sin there is a need for continual renewal and for constant conversion in the People of God. The Church on earth is “marked with a true holiness,” which is, however, “imperfect.”(50) Augustine observes against the Pelagians: “The Church as a whole says: Forgive us our trespasses! Therefore she has blemishes and wrinkles. But by means of confession the wrinkles are smoothed away and the blemishes washed clean. The Church stands in prayer in order to be purified by confession and, as long as men live on earth it will be so.”(51) And Thomas Aquinas makes clear that the fullness of holiness belongs to eschatological time; in the meantime, the Church still on pilgrimage should not deceive herself by saying that she is without sin: “To be a glorious Church, with neither spot nor wrinkle, is the ultimate end to which we are brought by the Passion of Christ. Hence, this will be the case only in the heavenly homeland, not here on the way of pilgrimage, where ‘if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves’…”(52) In reality, “though we are clothed with the baptismal garment, we do not cease to sin, to turn away from God. Now, in this new petition ‘forgive us our trespasses’], we return to him like the prodigal son (cf. Lk 15:11-32) and, like the tax collector, recognize that we are sinners before him (cf. Lk 18:13). Our petition begins with a ‘confession’ of our wretchedness and his mercy.”(53)

Hence it is the entire Church that confesses her faith in God through the confession of her children’s sins and celebrates his infinite goodness and capacity for forgiveness. Thanks to the bond established by the Holy Spirit, the communion that exists among all the baptized in time and space is such that in this communion each person is himself, but at the same time is conditioned by others and exercises an influence on them in the living exchange of spiritual goods. In this way, the holiness of each one influences the growth in goodness of others; however, sin also does not have an exclusively individual relevance, because it burdens and poses resistance along the way of salvation of all and, in this sense, truly touches the Church in her entirety, across the various times and places. This distinction prompts the Fathers to make sharp statements like this one of Ambrose: “Let us beware then that our fall not become a wound of the Church.”(54) The Church therefore, “although she is holy because of her incorporation into Christ, … does not tire of doing penance: Before God and man, she always acknowledges as her own her sinful sons and daughters”(55) of both yesterday and today.

 

[Michael_Francis]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)