Christ would have come anyways

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I’ve heard that some Theologians and the Pope have said that even if Adam and Eve had not sinned that Christ would have become Incarnate anyways could someone elaborate.
 
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starrs0:
I’ve heard that some Theologians and the Pope have said that even if Adam and Eve had not sinned that Christ would have become Incarnate anyways could someone elaborate.
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What would be the purpose? :confused: God Bless
 
This is not something I’ve investigated thoroughly, but from what I can tell, this assertion stems from the fact that God is outside time as we know it. Just as God knew that Adam and Eve would sin before he created them (and created them anyway), he also know that the He would make the Word incarnate. From what I can gather it has to do with predestination (not the Calvinistic double-predestination), which is not an area in which I have a great deal of knowledge.

I’m sure someone will expand/improve my explanation…
 
I think if Adam and Eve would have chosen the Tree of Life instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Jesus would have been their first born instead of the Cain, a murdurer. Maybe Able would have had a older brother who would have keep him alive forever being his brothers keeper. God Bless
 
I believe the Logos would have become incarnate even if humanity had not fallen. Of course, who knows what God would or would not do in any given hypothetical scenario.

My reasons for thinking that the Logos would have become incarnate even with a lack of a “Fall,” is based on my understanding of the Orthodox emphasis on the “deification” of humanity. As it stands, because of the Fall, the Logos became human in order to redeem fallen humanity. The goal of redemption is deification; i.e., humanity becoming like God, or as 2 Peter 1:4 puts it, that we should become “partakers of the divine nature.” If that is God’s goal for humanity, then Fall or no Fall, the Logos would have still partook of human nature in order that humanity could partake of the divine nature.

Therefore, as it stands, God’s incarnation in Jesus of Nazareth is the the result of our need for redemption with the goal of our becoming like God. But even if there were no need for redemption, I think that it is an astonishing testament of God’s love for us that God would still desire to be intimately united with humanity as to become one of us.

IMHO,
JMK
 
I had a great history teacher once, who always said he woudl try to answer any question as long as it is not a “what if.”
 
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starrs0:
I’ve heard that some Theologians and the Pope have said that even if Adam and Eve had not sinned that Christ would have become Incarnate anyways could someone elaborate.
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Can you elaborate about the said statement of the Pope? What papal document have you seen this?

If that were true, what would be the purpose of the incarnation?

This is one issue I think would be worthy of investigation.

Gerry 🙂
 
The purpose of the incarnation is to unite humanity to the divine. That was always God’s plan. If Adam had not sinned and brought death into the world then Christ would not have needed to defeat death, that is, He would not have had to die and come back to life.

John.
 
Unless I see where and when the Pope said this, I am inclined to believe that the Incarnation would be unnecessary had Adam and Eve not sinned and remained in the blissful state they were in paradise. Of course, Him whom we call the Christ, being God, as the eternal immutable Word would still exist.

Gerry 🙂
 
I believe the necessity of the incarnation regardless of the fall can be found in the writings of St. Irenaeus, St. Gregory the Theologian, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Maximos the Confessor among others. I’m sorry I don’t have specific references at hand but an in depth survey of their works can be found in the following book, Deification in Christ: The Nature of the Human Person by Panayiotis Nellas.

John.
 
The Franciscans have long been great defendors of this position. Was it John Duns Scotus who was it’s champion?

Since it is a matter of theological speculation, we are free to believe whichever position we choose here. Personally, I come down on the side that the Word would have desired to become flesh either way as He made us in His image and likeness as his specially beloved creatures. The fact that he came to redeem us despite the fact that we had rebeled (rather than abandoning us as He could have) is only further evidence of his great loving mercy for man and desire to be united with us, IMO.
 
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chicago:
The Franciscans have long been great defendors of this position. Was it John Duns Scotus who was it’s champion?

Since it is a matter of theological speculation, we are free to believe whichever position we choose here. Personally, I come down on the side that the Word would have desired to become flesh either way as He made us in His image and likeness as his specially beloved creatures. The fact that he came to redeem us despite the fact that we had rebeled (rather than abandoning us as He could have) is only further evidence of his great loving mercy for man and desire to be united with us, IMO.
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Precisely. It is still a matter of theological speculation, for I’m not aware of any official Church teaching on this score, mainly since the question is a hypothetical What if ?.., which only merits a tentative reply, an opinion.

On my part, I am inclined to believe that if Adam and Eve never sinned, there would be no need for Christ to come to earth and assume human nature, that is, flesh and blood, because Adam and Eve were already in the presence of God Himself in paradise!

Gerry 🙂
 
I think Gerry has provided some good food for thought. From an above post, I side with the idea that the Logos would have become incarnate even without there having been a Fall. However, as Gerry has pointed out, Eve and Adam were already in the divine presense in Paradise before the Fall, suggesting that the incarnation is only really necessary in view of the Fall.

If the goal of God’s creating humanity is deification though, the question must be asked: To what extent was the pre-Fall humanity in the image of God? Let me explain. Colossians 1:15 states that Christ is the image of the invisible God and, of course, Genesis 1:26 states that God created humanity in the image of God. Thus, if the pre-Fall humanity was, like Christ, the image of God, would the incarnation of the Logos in the case of a never-fallen humanity be redundant?

Perhaps. But this scenario still may not preclude an incarnation. Even if by virtue of the imago Dei humanity reflected God, without an incarnation, would God reflect humanity? That is, without an incarnation (even without a Fall), is God and humanity united?

Later,

John K.
 
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schleiermacher:
I think Gerry has provided some good food for thought. From an above post, I side with the idea that the Logos would have become incarnate even without there having been a Fall. However, as Gerry has pointed out, Eve and Adam were already in the divine presense in Paradise before the Fall, suggesting that the incarnation is only really necessary in view of the Fall.
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And so, as with many theological matters, each side of looking at it brings out it’s own unique realities.
If the goal of God’s creating humanity is deification though, the question must be asked: To what extent was the pre-Fall humanity in the image of God? Let me explain. Colossians 1:15 states that Christ is the image of the invisible God and, of course, Genesis 1:26 states that God created humanity in the image of God. Thus, if the pre-Fall humanity was, like Christ, the image of God, would the incarnation of the Logos in the case of a never-fallen humanity be redundant?

Perhaps. But this scenario still may not preclude an incarnation. Even if by virtue of the imago Dei humanity reflected God, without an incarnation, would God reflect humanity? That is, without an incarnation (even without a Fall), is God and humanity united?
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Precisely. It is due to the incarnation that we have the ability to become “partakers in the divine nature”. Was the garden of Eden, perhaps, more a place of natural happiness but not supernatural beatitude? What level of perfection in the life of God was possible pre-fall is a worthwhile question.
 
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chicago:
Precisely. It is due to the incarnation that we have the ability to become “partakers in the divine nature”. Was the garden of Eden, perhaps, more a place of natural happiness but not supernatural beatitude? What level of perfection in the life of God was possible pre-fall is a worthwhile question.
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That would indeed be a good topic to discuss. Life in the Garden of Eden in comparison to what life would be like in the New Jerusalem of Revelation. Of course, it would however be largely conjectural in nature, since we will be comparing what was, with what will be, both of which are beyond our capacity to observe, except for the glimpses provided to us by scripture.

Gerry 🙂
 
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RobedWithLight:
Of course, it would however be largely conjectural in nature, since we will be comparing what was, with what will be, both of which are beyond our capacity to observe, except for the glimpses provided to us by scripture.

Gerry 🙂
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That’s what makes it so fun… the wonderment of it all!
 
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