Christian Theology debt to Islamic Philosophy?

[TheAtheist]

Hi folks,

An encounter with Thomas Aquinas’ entry in wikipedia reminded me of a question i wanted to ask the knowledgeable.

Namely, the Angelic Doctor and many other medieval theologians of the “Aristotlean Explosion” drew much from the commentary on Aristotle by leading figures such as Al Kindi, Al-Ghazali, Averroes (Ibn Rushd), Avicenna (Ibn Sina), and Maimonides (Moses Ben Maimon) who were, ironically, maginalized by the Islamic faith.
I guess that explains why “Reason” isn’t much of a priority for the current iterations of Islam.

However, what I wanted to inquire about is - what exactly did your Theologians pull from these Islamic sources aside from the “base/core” of Aristotlean knowledge?*

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I guess that explains why “Reason” isn’t much of a priority for the current iterations of Islam.

you know this runs into a thought i have been having about what we call fanaticism. in the west we place a high priority on Reason above all else.

yet without Faith we cannot please G-d. frankly that thought is expressed throughout Scripture, but never is Reason held forth as a virtue, at least not to my knowledge.

now that being said, i admit that i am a fanatic, more important to me than any other thing is my relationship with G-d. Salvation is an ‘at all costs’ proposition for me. there is no other purpose to life. i pray for the strength to make as radical a commitment as necessary, be that to leave behind kith and kin, deny my desires, to suffer for the favor of my G-d. whatever the cost i seek to serve.

in that, how do i, and they differ any? yes, we don’t use violence, but were i a muslim with their understanding of how best to please G-d. i cant see that i would act any differently.

so, i wonder, can any man find Salvation without being a fanatic in the service of G-d? What is Reasons place in the intimate environment of that relationship ship between the individual and G-d? if it has any in that environment, then why is Faith, the virtue to please G-d? and not Reason?

 

[cpayne]

Hi folks,

An encounter with Thomas Aquinas’ entry in wikipedia reminded me of a question i wanted to ask the knowledgeable.

Namely, the Angelic Doctor and many other medieval theologians of the “Aristotlean Explosion” drew much from the commentary on Aristotle by leading figures such as Al Kindi, Al-Ghazali, Averroes (Ibn Rushd), Avicenna (Ibn Sina), and Maimonides (Moses Ben Maimon) who were, ironically, maginalized by the Islamic faith.
I guess that explains why “Reason” isn’t much of a priority for the current iterations of Islam.

However, what I wanted to inquire about is - what exactly did your Theologians pull from these Islamic sources aside from the “base/core” of Aristotlean knowledge?*

Aquinas thought very highly of Maimonides; some of Aquinas’s cosmological argument for God’s existence looks like it could have been borrowed from Maimonides (who wasn’t Moslem, as you point out). He disagreed with Averroes about some crucial issues, mostly the relationship of faith and reason. The Summa Contra Gentiles was written primarily as an evangelistic tool to reach the Moslems, but that project was interrupted by historical events. If it hadn’t been, perhaps the world would be a different place today.

Aquinas in general agreed with the Moslems insofar as they were theists.

 

[TheAtheist]

Gotta make this quick:

Cpayne: Thanks for the answer. What were his disagreements with Averroes?

you know this runs into a thought i have been having about what we call fanaticism. in the west we place a high priority on Reason above all else.

yet without Faith we cannot please G-d. frankly that thought is expressed throughout Scripture, but never is Reason held forth as a virtue, at least not to my knowledge.

Really really really deep question. Not sure if i have anything relevant to say though.

I mean, this is really the old Athens-Jerusalem problem all over again isn’t it?

I think Reason isn’t something on the “to-do” list for Scripture since your Lord’s judgments are based not on how much a person knows but the way one comports oneself.

in that, how do i, and they differ any? yes, we don’t use violence, but were i a muslim with their understanding of how best to please G-d. i cant see that i would act any differently.

And now we hit the crux of the manner don’t we?

Because if you feel you need to act in a certain way to please your God, the way in which you act may in fact have a severe detriment to your relationships with your neighbor.

And you have prioritized the relationship with God over that of your neighbor.

The other environmental dilemma for you would be the fact that we live in an age that is essentially Anti-Fanatic - of any stripe or sort.

You had stated previously that you respect Strong Atheists correct? Well, to be honest with you, the prevailing Moderate Consensus doesn’t much in the manner it doesn’t respect Religious fanatics.

Heck, even outside of religion, people generally identify themselves as Moderates than say Democrats or Republicans, Liberals or Conservatives, Labor or Tories etc.

These people don’t “operate” in the mode that you do.

Let me make this exceedingly clear: Their not simply just Anti-Catholic or Anti-Religious. No in fact many of them may share your faith. They may not be as motivated by it, but they believe none the less.

What the “Anti-Fanatic” Moderate Consensus judges you on is…you. And then they’ll group you together with the Strong Atheists, true Believing Communists, Staunch (Fill in the Country) Nationalists, etc.

What is the common thread that lumps you together with all of that? Simple.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what you believe.

It has everything to do with your behavior.

 

[cpayne]

Gotta make this quick:

Cpayne: Thanks for the answer. What were his disagreements with Averroes?

.

Primarily he disagreed over the idea of “Two Truths”–that one could believe one thing by faith and the opposite by reason, and that these two contradictory positions were both true because they were “true” in different realms.

Against this, Aquinas wrote “On the Unity of the Intellect Against Averroes,” in which he argued for only one truth–that is, if something is true, it would have to be true across all realms of inquiry. Logically, contradictories could not both be true.

There is some disagreement over how accurately Aquinas captured Averroes’ position on this. However, if his portrayal of Averroes is correct, I agree with Aquinas.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Because if you feel you need to act in a certain way to please your God, the way in which you act may in fact have a severe detriment to your relationships with your neighbor.

And you have prioritized the relationship with God over that of your neighbor.

true, but that is what the Master calls for. anythingless makes you unworthy of Him

The other environmental dilemma for you would be the fact that we live in an age that is essentially Anti-Fanatic - of any stripe or sort.

You had stated previously that you respect Strong Atheists correct? Well, to be honest with you, the prevailing Moderate Consensus doesn’t much in the manner it doesn’t respect Religious fanatics.

also true, and from my side of the fence, unfortunate in nature, or as Scripture says He will spit out the lukewarm. in our faith it really is all or nothing. fence sitters wont see the Beatific Vision

Heck, even outside of religion, people generally identify themselves as Moderates than say Democrats or Republicans, Liberals or Conservatives, Labor or Tories etc.

These people don’t “operate” in the mode that you do.

Let me make this exceedingly clear: Their not simply just Anti-Catholic or Anti-Religious. No in fact many of them may share your faith. They may not be as motivated by it, but they believe none the less.

What the “Anti-Fanatic” Moderate Consensus judges you on is…you. And then they’ll group you together with the Strong Atheists, true Believing Communists, Staunch (Fill in the Country) Nationalists, etc.

also true, but for men like me the whole ‘;be in the world, yet not part of it’ thing kicks in here

we are warned that we will be reviled and hated, we are to count it a blessing that we should suffer in any way on His behalf

only one vote counts in the end, His. the whole world may hate me, but if He be with me who can stand against me? i will be comforted in the end, if only i am granted the Grace and Strength to persevere

What is the common thread that lumps you together with all of that? Simple.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what you believe.

It has everything to do with your behavior.

see you did have something pertinent to say

 

[TheAtheist]

Primarily he disagreed over the idea of “Two Truths”–that one could believe one thing by faith and the opposite by reason, and that these two contradictory positions were both true because they were “true” in different realms.

Hmm, sounds like Signer Brabant.

 

[AndyF]

TheAtheist:

How about the fact that Mohamed believed Jesus to be God.

It’s so obvious the Koran is simply a proclamation that Jesus is God. It is also a document of Mohamed’s struggle with himself. All through it he attempts political correctness by playing both sides, by assigning Dietic attributes to Jesus, and events to be miraculous.

His personal draw to the people was too much for this charismatic, this old world successful “Karesh/Jones” to resist. Instead of nipping in the bud by crediting all to Jesus, whom it is obvious he believes to be God, he savors the moment and never lets his master’s popularity intrude on his basking in the limelight.

Saints Peter and Paul many times have had the opportunity to make their mandate their personal one, but always kept themselves aware of their mission.

A. Usogh Allee,S-5-110:“By my leave, thou healest those born blind, and the lepers. By my leave and behold thou bringeth forth the dead.”

Oud Emrom 5-45, Jesus is the greatest above all in this world and the world to come."

Which being can be greater than the greatest.?

S-5-46 “And, in their footsteps, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the gospel. Therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the* law* that had come before him. A guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.”

What law can be confirmed but the prophesies of God.?

The proof of Jesus’ Divinity goes on, [edited].

AndyF

 

[narrowpath]

TheAtheist:

How about the fact that Mohamed believed Jesus to be God.

It’s so obvious the Koran is simply a proclamation that Jesus is God. It is also a document of Mohamed’s struggle with himself. All through it he attempts political correctness by playing both sides, by assigning Dietic attributes to Jesus, and events to be miraculous.

His personal draw to the people was too much for this charismatic, this old world successful “Karesh/Jones” to resist. Instead of nipping in the bud by crediting all to Jesus, whom it is obvious he believes to be God, he savors the moment and never lets his master’s popularity intrude on his basking in the limelight.

Saints Peter and Paul many times have had the opportunity to make their mandate their personal one, but always kept themselves aware of their mission.

A. Usogh Allee,S-5-110:“By my leave, thou healest those born blind, and the lepers. By my leave and behold thou bringeth forth the dead.”

Oud Emrom 5-45, Jesus is the greatest above all in this world and the world to come."

Which being can be greater than the greatest.?

S-5-46 “And, in their footsteps, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the gospel. Therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the* law* that had come before him. A guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.”

What law can be confirmed but the prophesies of God.?

The proof of Jesus’ Divinity goes on, [edited].

AndyF

???

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. Qur’an 4:171

And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
1 did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things. Qur’an 4:116.-117