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EphelDuath
Guest
Can one be a “Christian stoic” if the only emotion he feels is the love of God and his kingdom, or does that contradict what stoicism is meant to be?
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06convert
Guest
From my understanding it’s a contradiction.
The stoics considered passionate emotions to be the result of errors in judgment, and that a sage, or person of “moral and intellectual perfection,” would not have such emotions.
Basically as a stoic you would strive to be indifferent to everything, therefore not passionate about anything.
I think most Christians would agree that Jesus was very passionate about certains things. Also as Christians most would beleive that Jesus didn’t make any “errors on judgement”.
If we are to use Jesus as an example, I would say that requres a fair amount of passion, therefore making it very difficult to practice stoicism.
The stoics considered passionate emotions to be the result of errors in judgment, and that a sage, or person of “moral and intellectual perfection,” would not have such emotions.
Basically as a stoic you would strive to be indifferent to everything, therefore not passionate about anything.
I think most Christians would agree that Jesus was very passionate about certains things. Also as Christians most would beleive that Jesus didn’t make any “errors on judgement”.
If we are to use Jesus as an example, I would say that requres a fair amount of passion, therefore making it very difficult to practice stoicism.
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faithfulrock3r
Guest
while i would agree with 06convert that stoicism and christianity do not work perfectly together, i would say that some aspects of stoicism are admirable and would work nicely with the Christian faith. The indifference to pain and adversity, the logical mentality, and the attempt to live by the natural law are all good things. I have always admired the stoics, and believe that there is much good to be found in their solid, if sometimes morbid, way of life.
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EphelDuath
Guest
I was thinking about it, and I do believe that they have a lot in common. Take, for instance, this scripture verse: “The LORD will fight for you, and you have only to keep still.” (Exodus 14:14)
I have a great admiration for figures like Cato Minor and Marcus Aurelius; not only for their moral prowess in a world drowning in lust and war, but also because they chose to live ascetically and simply despite being incredibly rich.
And I also understand that Boethius, a stoic philosophy, has been canonized by the Church. He wrote a lot about how fortune can take away all that you have, except for virtue, which is its own reward.
I have a great admiration for figures like Cato Minor and Marcus Aurelius; not only for their moral prowess in a world drowning in lust and war, but also because they chose to live ascetically and simply despite being incredibly rich.
And I also understand that Boethius, a stoic philosophy, has been canonized by the Church. He wrote a lot about how fortune can take away all that you have, except for virtue, which is its own reward.
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markhiggins01
Guest
Even stoic attitudes to pain are not particularly Catholic. In Catholicism we enter pain and offer it to God united to the Blessed passion of the Son. We are not trying to transcend experience or become impervious to it.
We have a fuller understanding of suffering and its meaning by drawing on the truth (which can be ascertained from experience) that '‘the essence of love is self-sacrifice for the other’- Christ reveals this truth in Himself Crucified.
Our sufferings are of value, in the sense that they can be united to Christ’s in the mystical body, only to the extent that they of the same quality in intention as Christ’s sufferings- ie that our sufferings are experienced and embraced as an expression of love for the other.
We have a fuller understanding of suffering and its meaning by drawing on the truth (which can be ascertained from experience) that '‘the essence of love is self-sacrifice for the other’- Christ reveals this truth in Himself Crucified.
Our sufferings are of value, in the sense that they can be united to Christ’s in the mystical body, only to the extent that they of the same quality in intention as Christ’s sufferings- ie that our sufferings are experienced and embraced as an expression of love for the other.
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heberje
Guest
'Christian Stoic" sounds like a contradiction in terms especially when it comes down to parenting aspects.What I want to know is, can you be a Catholic stoic parent? If so then why would you want to bring something into the world that requires love knowing you can’t display love or emotions? That seems to be a hatefull thing to do to a child. What effect will that have on the child when it reaches adulthood? I am a single parent with 2 teenagers. I do not consider myself a great parent I am more of a survivor but the one thing I learned was that small children need only one thing love, love and more love.
Kind Regards
Kind Regards
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heberje
Guest
BTW…Marcus Aurelius was a parent and Commodus was his son.
If you remember your Roman history Commodus wasn’t quite all there.
If you remember your Roman history Commodus wasn’t quite all there.
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heberje
Guest
BTW…Marcus Aurelius was a parent and Commodus was his son.
If you remember your Roman history Commodus wasn’t quite all there.
If you remember your Roman history Commodus wasn’t quite all there.
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Dameedna
Guest
This was rather buddhist of you
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Dameedna
Guest
Seems a basic understanding of what Stoicism is,(and how it is defined) might be in order.
The ancient Stoics are often misunderstood because the terms they used pertained to different concepts in the past than they do today. The word stoic has come to mean unemotional or indifferent to pain, because Stoic ethics taught freedom from passion by following reason. The Stoics did not seek to extinguish emotions, rather they sought to transform them by a resolute askēsis which enables a person to develop clear judgment and inner calm. Logic, reflection, and concentration were the methods of such self-discipline.
This is actually very close to buddhist philosophy, although they embrace experience(religious/spiritual) more than reason as do christians.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
Stoics do not lack emotions. They just are not managed or controlled by them. They let them happen, then determine what they mean and how to react to them.
The buddhist will go a little further(as will the christian) and claim that the reason you embrace the emotions(rather than let them rule you) is because they are there for a reason even if they are painful. They are given to you…for a purpose.
Cheers
Dame
The ancient Stoics are often misunderstood because the terms they used pertained to different concepts in the past than they do today. The word stoic has come to mean unemotional or indifferent to pain, because Stoic ethics taught freedom from passion by following reason. The Stoics did not seek to extinguish emotions, rather they sought to transform them by a resolute askēsis which enables a person to develop clear judgment and inner calm. Logic, reflection, and concentration were the methods of such self-discipline.
This is actually very close to buddhist philosophy, although they embrace experience(religious/spiritual) more than reason as do christians.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
Stoics do not lack emotions. They just are not managed or controlled by them. They let them happen, then determine what they mean and how to react to them.
The buddhist will go a little further(as will the christian) and claim that the reason you embrace the emotions(rather than let them rule you) is because they are there for a reason even if they are painful. They are given to you…for a purpose.
Cheers
Dame
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heberje
Guest
Well I was born and raised Catholic including education up to high school.
Actually I think that emotions are a big part of our Human Nature and that when we try go against our nature by suppressing our emotions, that then, may cause indirect damage within a family structure. When we try to control and manage something as complex and abstract as emotions and relationships, then we run the risk of over analyzing and repressing emotional issues because the knowledge base of most folks brains will not have sufficient information to choose the right path so then our brains will put things on hold until it gets fed more information, This implies that we have to take action to find the information we need to make a choice, that is the leaning curve. If our brains do not get that information then it sweeps stuff under the carpet. (repressing)
I think if we all just say our prayers and do the best we can at everything we do everyday then that serves God and everything will work out as it should. I try to keep my life as simple as possible because life is anything but simple.Our faith tells us that God will give only what we can handle in life. Our belief system guides our emotions onto the right path. Accept what we cannot hope to understand.
My Dad’s parents where French stoic folks. He grew up during the great depression and I must tell you I was an only son and I feel like I took some damage later on in my adult life
Everything we need to live a good and life is in the Bible.
Kind Regards
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Actually I think that emotions are a big part of our Human Nature and that when we try go against our nature by suppressing our emotions, that then, may cause indirect damage within a family structure. When we try to control and manage something as complex and abstract as emotions and relationships, then we run the risk of over analyzing and repressing emotional issues because the knowledge base of most folks brains will not have sufficient information to choose the right path so then our brains will put things on hold until it gets fed more information, This implies that we have to take action to find the information we need to make a choice, that is the leaning curve. If our brains do not get that information then it sweeps stuff under the carpet. (repressing)
I think if we all just say our prayers and do the best we can at everything we do everyday then that serves God and everything will work out as it should. I try to keep my life as simple as possible because life is anything but simple.Our faith tells us that God will give only what we can handle in life. Our belief system guides our emotions onto the right path. Accept what we cannot hope to understand.
My Dad’s parents where French stoic folks. He grew up during the great depression and I must tell you I was an only son and I feel like I took some damage later on in my adult life
Everything we need to live a good and life is in the Bible.
Kind Regards
.
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heberje
Guest
So what I am saying is that I do not believe that Stoicism is compatible in a Christian family environment. It is way too individual in nature and does not account for the needs of the dependent. Our passions and emotions are a part of what make us human.
When I think of stoic behavior I think of Mr. Spock the Vulcan on that old Star trek series on the TV.“Live long and Prosper” is one of his famous sayings. The Vulcan character was the embodiment of pure logic. in many ways that is what stoicism preaches.
Not sure if any of you know this TV show. I have lived with a Stoic dad most of my life but I cannot in all honesty say that he raised me or taught me anything useful about living my life
When I think of stoic behavior I think of Mr. Spock the Vulcan on that old Star trek series on the TV.“Live long and Prosper” is one of his famous sayings. The Vulcan character was the embodiment of pure logic. in many ways that is what stoicism preaches.
Not sure if any of you know this TV show. I have lived with a Stoic dad most of my life but I cannot in all honesty say that he raised me or taught me anything useful about living my life
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Perhaps a more intriguing question is the one discussed by Socrates and his friend Protarchus: Is pleasure or reason the greatest thing a man can seek?
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heberje
Guest
I think virtue and truth are what a man must seek. and the courage to translate that into deed.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
It sounds like you would agree with Socrates that obtaining reason and wisdom are the best goals of life.
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heberje
Guest
Te Digna Sequere
These are the things worthy of me.
These are the things worthy of me.
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TheWhim
Guest
I think there is a certain relation, if we stick to practice.
“All pertains to your opinions” the Stoics used to say. “There is nothing frightful about death; what makes it frightful is our frightened attitude towards it” and so on…
Stoicism is a means to overcome embarrassments and even pain by disinvesting the events we associate with painful feelings of the emotional load we put on to them. - The Christian martyr did nothing else. He said: All this suffering is nothing to me - because the Kingdom of Heaven is come.
Both Christianity and Stoicism lay great stress on the power of the mind.
“All pertains to your opinions” the Stoics used to say. “There is nothing frightful about death; what makes it frightful is our frightened attitude towards it” and so on…
Stoicism is a means to overcome embarrassments and even pain by disinvesting the events we associate with painful feelings of the emotional load we put on to them. - The Christian martyr did nothing else. He said: All this suffering is nothing to me - because the Kingdom of Heaven is come.
Both Christianity and Stoicism lay great stress on the power of the mind.
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heberje
Guest
Yes…One can acheive as much, learning to play poker. I am not sure where you are from I am an American and we have this card game called poker.
I do not know if it is obvious but I have few good things to say about Stoic philosophy when the family structure is concerned. I do think Stoicism has much of a place in the family structure. I feel that it is more dysfunctional than usefull when dealing with the spouse and kids.
Alexander the Great’s generals were self professed stoics but I thought it interesting to know that Alexander himself was not stoic.
I do not know if it is obvious but I have few good things to say about Stoic philosophy when the family structure is concerned. I do think Stoicism has much of a place in the family structure. I feel that it is more dysfunctional than usefull when dealing with the spouse and kids.
Alexander the Great’s generals were self professed stoics but I thought it interesting to know that Alexander himself was not stoic.
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heberje
Guest
There is a typeo in my last post I meant to say, “I do not think Stoicism has a place in the family structure”.
Also, just in case maybe I should explain poker…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker
Also, just in case maybe I should explain poker…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker
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Dameedna
Guest
I think you are misunderstanding stoicism. I’m not terribly familiar with all of it, but it isn’t about negating human emotion as you seem to be saying.
It is a matter of teaching ourselves to overcome our desire to let emotions rule our lives.
We do, within the family unit teach our children this(hopefully). They may be angry NOW but they must overcome it. How…by firstly accepting it is there, then using rational thinking to determine where it’s coming from, then …attempt to solve the problem, or change the attitude.
If you have kids, you will teach them stoic principles wether you mean to or not.
IE. Allow the emotion, understand where it comes from…then learn how to deal with it, without it controlling your life.
If you let your emotions control you, then I doubt you could even call yourself a christian.
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