Christianity before Constantine

[roseproject]

My sister asked me a question recently which I wasn’t quite sure how to answer in full: She was talking with a Mormon and the guy said that since it was so brutal for Christians in Rome back in the day (before Constantine made Christianity legal in Rome), Christianity couldn’t have survived and continued the way Catholics claim it does because all believers would’ve been killed.
I know there have been many cilvilizations that, despite all odds, ended up being strongly Christian places in the end (I brought up the example of Ireland to my sister). Then, there was another aspect to my sister’s question: Is there any written documentation of a living, Christian community up until Constantine?
What this Mormon man claimed to her was that since there probably wasn’t any written proof of such a society surviving (at least, any that survived the barbarity of the time), a lot of the information we got was from word of mouth…and, along the way, we got a sort of “telephone game” effect where some of the information was wrong and whatnot.

Thanks in advance

 

[Rolltide]

Well, here’s a couple of selections from Justin Martyr’s Apologia, which was written in 150 AD, about 50 years after the death of the last apostles. It describes what a typical Mass was like at that time. I have added commentary in bold to show parallels between their services and the ones that we use today.

**Justin Martyr

Selections from Apologia (c. 150 AD)**

And on the day called the Day of the Sun [Sunday] there is a gathering in one place of us all who live in cities or in the country [The Mass], and the memoirs of the Apostles or the writings of the prophets are read as long as time allows [The Liturgy of the Word]. Then, when the reader has ceased, the priest gives by word of mouth his admonition and exhortation to imitate these excellent things [The Homily]. Afterward we all rise at once and offer prayers; and as I said, when we have ceased to pray, bread is brought and wine and water, and the priest likewise offers up prayers and thanksgivings as he has the ability, and the people assent, saying “Amen.” **[The Presentation of the Gifts] **The distribution to each and the partaking of that for which thanks were given then take place; and to those not present a portion is sent by the hands of the deacons. Those who are well-to-do and willing give, every one giving what he will, according to his own judgment, and the collection is deposited with the priest, and he assists orphans and widows, and those who through sickness or any other cause are in want, and those who are in bonds, and the strangers that are sojourning, and, in short, he has the care of all that are in need [The Offertory Collection]. Now we all hold our common meeting on the Day of the Sun, because it is the first day on which God, having changed the darkness and matter, created the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For on the day before Saturn’s they crucified Him ****; and on the day after Saturn’s; which is the Day of the Sun, having appeared to his Apostles and disciples, He taught them these things which we have offered you for consideration…

…But after we have thus washed him who is persuaded and has assented [here discussing a newly baptized person], we bring him to those who are called the brethren, to where they are gathered together, making earnest prayer in common for ourselves and for him who is enlightened, and for all others everywhere, that we may be accounted worthy, after we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found right livers and keepers of the commandments, that we may be saved with the eternal salvation. [The General Intercessions / Prayers of the Faithful] We salute each other with a kiss when we conclude our prayers [The “kiss” is the Sign of Peace]. Thereupon to the priest of the brethren bread and a cup of water and wine are brought, and he takes it and offers up praise and glory to the Father of the universe through the name of the Son and the Holy Spirit, and gives thanks at length that we have been accounted worthy of these things from Him; and when he has ended the prayers and thanksgiving the whole people present assent, saying “Amen.” [The Eucharistic Prayers / The Consecration] Now the word Amen in the Hebrew language signifies, So be it. Then after the priest has given thanks and all the people have assented, those who are called by us deacons give to each one of those present to partake of the bread and of the wine and water for which thanks have been given, and for those not present they take away a portion. [Communion]

And this food is called by us Eucharist, and it is not lawful for any man to partake of it but him who believes the things taught by us to be true [Communion is open only to Catholics and considered a sacrament of initiation], and has been washed with the washing which is for the remission of sins and unto a new birth, and is so living as Christ commanded [Communion may not be partaken in by the unbaptized]. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but just as Jesus Christ our Savior, being made flesh through the word of God, had for our salvation both flesh and blood, so, also, we are taught that the food for which thanks are given by the word of prayer which is from Him, and from which by conversion our flesh and blood are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh [the Real Presence]. For the Apostles in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, thus delivered what was commanded them: that Jesus took bread and gave thanks and said, This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body; and that He likewise took the cup, and when He had given thanks, said, This is My blood [Mt 26:17-19; Mk 14:12-16; Lk 22:7-13], and gave only to them…**

 

[christus_vincit]

Then, there was another aspect to my sister’s question: Is there any written documentation of a living, Christian community up until Constantine?

I’d say the most obvious examples would be St. Paul’s letters written to various Christian communities throughout Europe and Asia Minor.

The Roman persecutions of Christians were sporadic and highly dependent on the local magistrate of the particular Roman province. Some were lenient, even tolerant - others were ruthless. However - there was never a time when Christians were hunted down and martyred universally throughout the entire Empire. Times were tough at points, sure, and many were thrown to the lions. But it is an absurd claim to say that true Christianity was eradicated before Constantine, only to spring back up in Mormonism. This is a claim unique to Mormonism that demonstrates some sort of willful negligence of history.

 

[Jack007]

All the books of the bible, Apostolic Fathers,Didache,Shepherd of hermas…

And the ‘hypothetical’ priest who baptised constantine

 

[Scottgun]

What this Mormon man claimed to her was that since there probably wasn’t any written proof of such a society surviving (at least, any that survived the barbarity of the time), a lot of the information we got was from word of mouth…and, along the way, we got a sort of “telephone game” effect where some of the information was wrong and whatnot.

Ah yes. The old Telephone Game gambit. This is one of Sola Scriptura’s idiot cousins. You see it where skeptics try to place the NT writing as far away from the time of Christ as possible because they think the telephone game applies, and fundamentalists try to place it as close as possible because if Christians are running around without a complete Bible, why they resemble (gasp!) Catholics.

The whole disparaging of oral tradition is really modern arrogance. The fact is that people during this time had better and fully-trained memories and could memorize whole chunks of material and repeat it exactly and could preserve it intact for long periods of time. We still see examples of accurate oral tradition in the song traditions of Appalachia for instance.

So much of Protestantism relies on conspiracy theory, and that’s simply no good way to run your life.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The angel Maroni supposedly told Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, that the early Church became apostate and dropped doctrines that he would no revive.

The problem is that these doctrines were never part of Christianity, nor is there any record of them being condemned.

You might ask your Mormon friend where those doctrines actually came from ?

Then of course is the Mormon teaching about the big battle between the Nephites and Lamanites Hill Comorah in what is now upper New York State. How come no archeological evidence of such a battle was ever found ?

Lastly, from Newadvent.org Bold is mine.

Joseph Smith states that he received the record from the angel Moroni in September, 1827. It was, he alleges, engraved upon metallic plates having the appearance of gold and each a little thinner than ordinary tin, the whole forming a book about six inches long, six inches wide, and six inches thick, bound together by rings. The characters engraved upon the plates were in a language styled the Reformed Egyptian, and with the book were interpreters — Urim and Thummim — by means of which these characters were to be translated into English. The result was the “Book of Mormon”, published at Palmyra, New York in March, 1830; in the preface eleven witnesses, exclusive of Joseph Smith, the translator, claim to have seen the plates from which it was taken. By renouncing Mormonism subsequently, **Cowdery, Whitmer, and Harris—the three principal witnesses—implicitly declared this testimony false. **

Jim

 

[Peter_Plato]

My sister asked me a question recently which I wasn’t quite sure how to answer in full: She was talking with a Mormon and the guy said that since it was so brutal for Christians in Rome back in the day (before Constantine made Christianity legal in Rome), Christianity couldn’t have survived and continued the way Catholics claim it does because all believers would’ve been killed.
I know there have been many cilvilizations that, despite all odds, ended up being strongly Christian places in the end (I brought up the example of Ireland to my sister). Then, there was another aspect to my sister’s question: Is there any written documentation of a living, Christian community up until Constantine?
What this Mormon man claimed to her was that since there probably wasn’t any written proof of such a society surviving (at least, any that survived the barbarity of the time), a lot of the information we got was from word of mouth…and, along the way, we got a sort of “telephone game” effect where some of the information was wrong and whatnot.

Thanks in advance

Your sister’s Mormon friend simply does not know what he is talking about. There is a huge corpus of writings by Christians and about Christianity by others from the infancy of the Church right up until Constantine and beyond.

The claims of this man are figments of his imagination and do not even remotely resemble the reality of what exists as historical evidence.

This site provides a dated list of sources along with translations of the extant works.

earlychristianwritings.com

The problem with the site is that it does not make distinctions between authentic Christian works and those that purport to be Christian but are heretical, so care has to be taken when reading some of the writings that are not really Christian in perspective as much as they claim to be.

The point, however, is that even heretical alterations of Christianity prove that Christianity continued to exist in order for aberrations of it to be spawned from it and recognized as aberrations when they were written.

Also, the dating of many of the works is far later than the evidence would indicate.

The Gospels, Acts and some of the letters of the Apostles had to predate the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. because if these works were written after the destruction, mention of that event would certainly have been made in those writings.

Also, it is not clear how letters written by Paul could have been written by him after he was martyred in 67 AD. Yet, some of Paul’s epistles are dated after 70 AD.

A great and very scholarly work by Richard Bauckham called Jesus and the Eyewitnesses debunks the “telephone game” myth about how carefully “Christianity” was passed on by word of mouth. If consistent “checks” are in place to verify information while playing the telephone game, the information gets transmitted without error. The question is whether these checks were in play at the time of early Christianity and Bauckham shows they definitely were.

 

[scapularkid8]

My sister asked me a question recently which I wasn’t quite sure how to answer in full: She was talking with a Mormon and the guy said that since it was so brutal for Christians in Rome back in the day (before Constantine made Christianity legal in Rome), Christianity couldn’t have survived and continued the way Catholics claim it does because all believers would’ve been killed.
I know there have been many cilvilizations that, despite all odds, ended up being strongly Christian places in the end (I brought up the example of Ireland to my sister). Then, there was another aspect to my sister’s question: Is there any written documentation of a living, Christian community up until Constantine?
)

Has this Mormon friend ever heard of the Axum Empire (Ethiopia)? Christianity became the state religion there about the same time as the Roman Empire, yet they were a little isolated. The interpretation of the Christian religion in Eastern Rome and Ethopia are, basically, similar or the same on many points (at least more similar to each other than Mormonism will ever be to either of them).

 

[scapularkid8]

The whole disparaging of oral tradition is really modern arrogance. The fact is that people during this time had better and fully-trained memories and could memorize whole chunks of material and repeat it exactly and could preserve it intact for long periods of time. We still see examples of accurate oral tradition in the song traditions of Appalachia for instance.

Not to mention the fact that the Quran was memorized and not recorded in book form for many years. The community just memorized it during Muhammed’s lifetime and verified their memorizations with him and each other until his death when they decided it would be a good idea to write it on bone just in case anyone forgot…It’s so true, people in this time just didn’t need things written down like we do.

 

[sousley]

My sister asked me a question recently which I wasn’t quite sure how to answer in full: She was talking with a Mormon and the guy said that since it was so brutal for Christians in Rome back in the day (before Constantine made Christianity legal in Rome), Christianity couldn’t have survived and continued the way Catholics claim it does because all believers would’ve been killed.
I know there have been many cilvilizations that, despite all odds, ended up being strongly Christian places in the end (I brought up the example of Ireland to my sister). Then, there was another aspect to my sister’s question: Is there any written documentation of a living, Christian community up until Constantine?
What this Mormon man claimed to her was that since there probably wasn’t any written proof of such a society surviving (at least, any that survived the barbarity of the time), a lot of the information we got was from word of mouth…and, along the way, we got a sort of “telephone game” effect where some of the information was wrong and whatnot.

Thanks in advance

Exodus 1:8-12 (D-R)

In the mean time there arose a new king over Egypt, that knew not Joseph: And he said to his people: Behold the people of the children of Israel are numerous and stronger than we. Come, let us wisely oppress them, lest they multiply: and if any war shall rise against us, join with our enemies, and having overcome us, depart out of the land.

Therefore he set over them masters of the works, to afflict them with burdens, and they built for Pharao cities of tabernacles, Phithom and Ramesses. But the more they oppressed them, the more they were multiplied, and increased: And the Egyptians hated the children of Israel, and afflicted them and mocked them

 

[Ad_Orientem]

The Church’s survival to this day is indeed miraculous. It is a sign that the Church is no merely human institution, but divine. “Behold, I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Mt. 28: 20

 

[Methos]

My sister asked me a question recently which I wasn’t quite sure how to answer in full: She was talking with a Mormon and the guy said that since it was so brutal for Christians in Rome back in the day (before Constantine made Christianity legal in Rome), Christianity couldn’t have survived and continued the way Catholics claim it does because all believers would’ve been killed.
I know there have been many cilvilizations that, despite all odds, ended up being strongly Christian places in the end (I brought up the example of Ireland to my sister). Then, there was another aspect to my sister’s question: Is there any written documentation of a living, Christian community up until Constantine?

Thanks in advance

There were churches outside of the Roman, later Eastern/Byzantine Empire, such the Assyrian Church of the East in what was then the Sassanian Empire, the Byzantine Empire’s main rival. Also, there are the St. Thomas Christians in India. People tend to have a very Eurocentric version of Church history, forgetting there were other nations out there, such as the aforementioned Aksumite Empire and China, under various dynasties. Jesus did say to preach to all nations, not just ones around the Mediterranean.

 

[asia53]

My Parish is doing Epic: The Early Church, The First 500 Years by Ascension Press. Your sister’s Mormon friend is very mistaken.

We have just started studying the Persecution, AD 100 - 312. This is what I’ve learned so far:

1.) Look at St Ignatius of Antioch, he wrote six letters to the Catholic churches in the empire, and one letter to St Polycarp of Smyrna revealing a great deal about the early church.

2.) Christians were blamed for everything–mitigation of the barbarians, natural disasters, deflect criticism of the emperor’s rule, and to enforce imperial unity.

3.) The persecutions weren’t always empire-wide, sometimes, they were just local.

4.) The persecutions had the opposite effect on some of the Roman and pagan citizens. They were amazed at the love, hope and faith of the Christian community, especially, the martyrs, who went smiling and singing to their gruesome deaths. There were many conversions during this time.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

My Parish is doing Epic: The Early Church, The First 500 Years by Ascension Press. Your sister’s Mormon friend is very mistaken.

We have just started studying the Persecution, AD 100 - 312. This is what I’ve learned so far:

1.) Look at St Ignatius of Antioch, he wrote six letters to the Catholic churches in the empire, and one letter to St Polycarp of Smyrna revealing a great deal about the early church.

2.) Christians were blamed for everything–mitigation of the barbarians, natural disasters, deflect criticism of the emperor’s rule, and to enforce imperial unity.

3.) The persecutions weren’t always empire-wide, sometimes, they were just local.

4.) The persecutions had the opposite effect on some of the Roman and pagan citizens. They were amazed at the love, hope and faith of the Christian community, especially, the martyrs, who went smiling and singing to their gruesome deaths. There were many conversions during this time.

True.

Added to that, St. Ignatius and St Polycarp who were disciples of St John, were auditors of St John’s Gospel.

Mormons reject the 1st Chapter, which describes Jesus as the Word who is God, who dwelt from the beginning and created all things and who became flesh. Their claim is that it was added text.

Jim

 

[Micko]

It all comes down to doctrine.

Constantine and all Christians before him followed the scripture that ultimately led to the Bible. That was their Doctrine.

Later other doctrines were written based on Bible interpretation. These became what we call the Orthodox churches.

Later there was the Protestants, Huguenots, Anabaptist, etc. These people all wanted to reclaim the New Testament as their doctrine not the opinions of past theologians.

Whatever group you belong to, seek the Lord and his righteousness. Study the scripture and the Holy Spirit who inspired it.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[_Deidre]

I’ve done a lot of research on Gnosticism, and it would seem anyway, that prior to Constantine, that Gnostics were considered to be following ‘true Christianity.’ I was raised Catholic, and practiced it for a long time, and what prompted me looking into much of this, was my own path in exploring religions(s). I don’t currently follow Christianity, now.

Just my thoughts on this topic.

 

[Jack007]

There were churches outside of the Roman, later Eastern/Byzantine Empire, such the Assyrian Church of the East in what was then the Sassanian Empire, the Byzantine Empire’s main rival. Also, there are the St. Thomas Christians in India. People tend to have a very Eurocentric version of Church history, forgetting there were other nations out there, such as the aforementioned Aksumite Empire and China, under various dynasties. Jesus did say to preach to all nations, not just ones around the Mediterranean.

yes.
I wish those Jesuits who oppressed my sui iuris church knew this.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Micko

Constantine and all Christians before him followed the scripture that ultimately led to the Bible. That was their Doctrine.

The canon of the New Testament was established before Constantine around 257AD and he was not knowledgeable about Scripture outside what Bishops told him. He didn’t convert to Christianity until his deathbed conversion where he was Baptized, just in case the Christians were right. Also, it was an Aryan Bishop who Baptized him.

Constantine’s main focus with Christianity was to establish peace between the Pope and Aryans and also with Roman Pagan’s who had constantly persecuted Christians even after Constantine’s death.

Later other doctrines were written based on Bible interpretation. These became what we call the Orthodox churches.

Not exactly. Doctrines were part of Sacred Tradition from the early 1st Century Church. Even the dogma of the Assumption was part of Early Church Tradition, and not found in Scripture. The latest dogma, the Immacualte Conception, didn’t come until 1854, but it was based on the study of Scripture and Tradition together.

Later there was the Protestants, Huguenots, Anabaptist, etc. These people all wanted to reclaim the New Testament as their doctrine not the opinions of past theologians.

There were various heretical groups in the course of history and some like the Albigenses, held teachings that would appall people even today. Protestantism didn’t come about until the 1500’s when Martin Luther’s edict on the justification of faith triggered the “Reformation.”

Jim

 

[sousley]

Gnostics were considered to be following ‘true Christianity.’

??? considered by whom, themselves? They burrowed whatever name suited their needs.
Gnosticism appealed to attainment of supernatural knowledge for justification, granted from the 30 Aeons they worshiped. Their Demiurge perspective was the polar opposite of the God of Abraham, and apart from the name’s they pirated and applied to their own version of reality, they only resembled polytheistic paganism, not Christianity. Some sects were even at odds over whether Jesus and the Holy Spirit were numbers 29 and 30, respectively, of the Aeon array; but they certainly didn’t even merit existence in the Pleroma. The Early Church Fathers wrote at length against this heresy.