Christianity unity possibly in our lifeline

[Hesychios]

I see. In your eyes, those who can be saved is the one who has the “correct” theology. I wonder where did Jesus said that theology saves people?

You beg the question. But in fact it is not that one thinks theology saves people, probably the opposite would be more correct. The via negativa is helpful here.

I think perhaps that this is more about the worship… properly… of God. Not so directly related to who can be saved. We really do not know the mind of God, and we do not know limits to His love. To say someone cannot be saved for this or that reason is placing ourselves as judges over the souls of men, something no man is allowed to do.

I think Christianity alone of the major religions demands an accurate understanding of the divine we worship (note: not a ‘complete’ or ‘comprehensive’ or ‘thorough’ understanding, but what we do know should be accurate). In my opinion this is probably to avoid the prospect of worshiping a god of our own making. Once we invent a god or aspects of God, and adore, praise and honor this invention we are engaging in idol worship.

In other words if you believe something that is not actually true, and you worship this falsehood, you are worshiping a god of your own (or someone’s) making. It is like projecting. This is why the road to communion is not based upon compromise either: we cannot compromise our different projections into a common faith, it loses all credibility and non-believers would be perfectly justified in calling us on it.

It is hard to imagine what could be worse, but supposing we were all making up things about God and worshiping these products of our creaturely minds, each of us not particularly concerned that we all worshipped something different?

We are saved in community, after all. This is not a trip we take ourselves.

Christianity recognized this a long time ago, and in your own church there is still always a call to be aware of the danger of indifferentism. This is a very ancient demand our faith places upon us, so ancient it precedes all of the schisms and separates us from the Gnostics. Holy Orthodoxy is simply the same as your church on this point.

 

[agiosotheos]

All the law of God is the truth, all the prophets of God are truth, and we know that all law and prophets hang on, and depend on the greatest commandments. So why can’t we simply hang Christian Unity on the greatest commandments?

God cannot be properly loved without a proper understanding of who He is, for one thing.

But even beyond the actual act of love, there are plenty of other truths that are necessary to be recognized for us to properly evangelize to others and love them.

How can you call the greatest commandments, some abstract concept of love?

I’m not. I’m calling your conception of love abstract.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Michael,

Christianity recognized this a long time ago, and in your own church there is still always a call to be aware of the danger of indifferentism.

Which seems to suggest that in the past, each time, when this fear of indifferentism reared its ugly head, Christianity split into more denominations?

We are saved in community, after all. This is not a trip we take ourselves.

So we must hang unity on the greatest commandments, when we put the greatest first and above all else, then unity will fall into place.

Blessings

Eric

 

[Hesychios]

Greetings and peace be with you Michael,

Christianity recognized this a long time ago, and in your own church there is still always a call to be aware of the danger of indifferentism.

I must say I admire your spirit.

However I think that we cannot go this way, it is like saying a law is bad because people keep breaking it.

Ideally, we need to show how observing the law (let’s call it: the Law of the Love of God for hypothetical purposes) is best for everyone. People will generally obey it.

I am of the opinion that we must stick as closely as possible to the Received Tradition as we know it, and not engage in idle speculation about the divine. This is where heretics mess up: they imagine a scenario or concept or “fact” by using their own intellectual capabilities (some of these people were very well classically trained in philosophy and rhetoric, most were accomplished scripture scholars) and come to interpretations that could be correct, even might be correct, but there is no way to really know. This particular tendency is more acute in cataphatic reasoning.

Subsequent deep thinkers build upon these ideas. I call it derivative theology, it takes us further and further from the received Truth we know was held by the Apostles. It takes us further from the simpler straightforward message of Christ we all once understood and believed.

Today, too many Christians are content with this, and more or less expect new theology, new religious concepts… new dogmas. Thus we invite new divisions among us (not to mention new ranks of sceptics).

The way through this is not to say “I’m OK, you’re OK… let’s eat!”. The way through this is to get back to basics. Affirm clearly what we have always known when we were all one Christian faith, take a pass on the rest. Call them “Pious Opinions” and recognize that these are not basic to salvation and not binding upon our fellows.

In other words, less really can be more.

Imagine all the theologians of all the ages past and future standing out on a giant wheel, like a wagon wheel. Each person somewhere on some spoke, with Christ in the very center and the Apostles clustered in the hub. People are scattered in every direction, many along the same lines but some much further out than others.

Our challenge is to bring these all together, to make them closer together, as one. We cannot move Christ and the Apostles off of that center toward one end where most of the people are. The only way is for many of these people to retrace the steps that brought them so far out, and to cluster everyone once again around that hub.

So we must hang unity on the greatest commandments, when we put the greatest first and above all else, then unity will fall into place.

We wish to be One for the love of Christ.

What is it that makes us One?

Behind all of the big talk about authority (some have it, some don’t, some want it, some don’t) is the idea that there is only one Truth, one Faith. It is unity in Faith that is preeminent, it is the rationale and foundation for all teaching authority in the church. For if we do not know what is right to teach, we have no need of teachers.

If we share communion with teachers who teach differently we are simply masking over a serious underlying disunity. This might fool us, but it will not trick God. We will not be able to satisfy Jesus’ prayer that all be one, as He and the Father are One.

Blessings

May God Bless you too!

 

[agiosotheos]

Good post, Michael.

 

[DavidMark]

I would find it amusing, if the hour was not so urgent, that you dear ones seek Christian unity, when the Promised One has come and you are unaware.

Say: Oh servants!
Do not make the Cause of order a cause for disorder, nor the means of unity a means for disunity. It is hoped that the people of Bahá will observe the sacred verse: ** “Say: all are created by God.” **
This lofty utterance is like unto water for quenching the fire of hate and hostility which is hidden and stored in men’s hearts and minds.
This single utterance will cause the various sects and creeds to attain the light of true unity. Verily He speaketh the truth and guideth to the right path; and He is the Mighty, the Glorious, the Omnipotent. ~Bahá’u’lláh, BWF, p. 210, TB, p. 222

The great and fundamental teachings of Bahá’u’lláh are the oneness of God and unity of mankind. This is the bond of union among Bahá’ís all over the world. They become united among themselves, then unite others. It is impossible to unite unless united. Christ said, “Ye are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted?” ~’Abdu’l-Bahá, PUP, p. 156

Say: O peoples of all faiths! Walk not in the ways of them that followed the Pharisees and thus veiled themselves from the Spirit. They truly have strayed and are in error. The Ancient Beauty is come in His Most Great Name, and He wisheth to admit all mankind into His most holy Kingdom. The pure in heart behold the Kingdom of God manifest before His Face. Make haste thereunto and follow not the infidel and the ungodly. Should your eye be opposed thereto, pluck it out. Thus hath it been decreed by the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by Him Who is the Lord of the entire creation. He, verily, hath come again that ye might be redeemed, O peoples of the earth. Will ye slay Him Who desireth to grant you eternal life? Fear God, O ye who are endued with insight. (Bahá’u’lláh, SLH, p. 63)

Unless one recognize God and love Him, his cry shall not be heard by God in this Day. This is of the essence of His Faith, did ye but know it. ~Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 293

 

[eichenb2]

Christian unity is not enough. There must be unity among all mankind, and they will come from all religious backgrounds, and God can weld them into a single body just as easily as He has put a single atmosphere above them, and made them walk on the same globe, and made all their blood red. It takes time to accomplish both.
**
…and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.** (John 10:16 KJV)
**
God will one day bring you all together; verily, God is All-Powerful. **(Qur’án, 2:148)

**That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.(**Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 255)

How is this possible? Because Baha’u’llah’s enemies banished Him to Palestine, and He summoned the Jews to return from their exile, and still, it is as if the nations can’t see their hand in front of their face.

By Thine aloneness the Sun of Oneness shone, and by Thy banishment the land of Unity was adorned. Be patient, O Thou Exile of the worlds.(Baha’u’llah, Fire Tablet, Baha’i Prayers, p. 218)

When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth.(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 319)

U mean a divine communism ???

 

[KathleenGee]

Agiosothos,

I was referring to Jews who accepted Christ in His time, and those who have no antipathy towards Christ…see Him as a great philosopher…

I am aware of some passages of the Talmud…but I let God be God and turn my back to it.

Yes, we are the Chosen People, we are Fulfilled Jews as John Paul II said, although I don’t count on it for myself…those who persevere to the end will be saved.

God does not break His promises…and I see so many blessings and providential help for the Jews I work among…in some ways, I can see we are on the same spiritual plane…and they are very good, conscientious people who try to be humane to all…These I see as chosen, but not fulfilled.

The Catholic Church continues to see the Jews as God’s chosen, and we venerate their history, the Word of God, and acknowledge the first 20 years of the early church was exclusively Jewish.

Let God take care of the Apostates…I am also aware of their effects in the modern world and in our country, and we have countless many Gentiles to join them.

I think the issue I have mainly with the orthodox…and I now sympathize with the concept of Original Sin…it appears orthodox are clannish, only in with their own nationality of people. Like there are the Greeks and they keep separate from others, they make the best food and so we go to their festivals…but there is this separateness…we can’t be a family…

How many of us have members of our own family that don’t live right, but we still come to the table to share???

We need to come to the banquet table…especially in America with its 36,000 cults and sects of Christianity…to save our country that is run by atheists and who knows what else…

 

[agiosotheos]

I would find it amusing, if the hour was not so urgent, that you dear ones seek Christian unity, when the Promised One has come and you are unaware.

Christ promised that He would leave the job of preservation of faith to His Church. His Church has taught that God is a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Muhammad taught that Jesus is not divine and God is not a Trinity. He thus cannot be a Prophet. Baha’u’llah likewise taught these same teachings and claimed succession to Muhammad. He thus cannot be a Prophet either.

 

[KathleenGee]

DavidMark,

I think the last post here by Agiopothos, sorry, I am not remember to spell your name correctly, pretty much says it all why we believe Jesus Christ is the final revelation of God to mankind.

 

[KathleenGee]

agiosotheos,

I also have been reflecting on the Filoque…I am now holding on to my Latin tradition there…Yes, God the Father is Creator, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit have always been one, eternal.

Jesus said there would be the One Who would come after Him as well…If we simply say the Holy Spirit can only come from the Father, then we are separating…and this then gives the impression to the Muslims that we are polytheistic.

But about Original Sin…I have also reflected…why did God make us to fall so most would go to hell? Why make us knowing most would not be strong enough? My pastor said nobody knows the past regarding Adam and Eve and Noah…these were original myths of people living in the region of ancient Ur. Paleontologists still are not completely defining the First man and first woman, but I also read one time that our DNA says we all come from a common mother. Eve? I don’t know.

But we all have the fallen nature, pagans can see God in the world around them, as St. Paul said, but it is only from the Jewish people that God revealed the fullness of His revelation in Jesus Christ, Who liberated us from the oppression of sin, retaught us to love Him in the front of every heart of all people, and to forgive.

I think my last statement here refers to the Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox would not forgive the Latin church still, when Pope John Paul II came asking forgiveness.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you agiosotheos*;*

In the quest for unity, the greatest commandments seem to loose all their meaning, and almost seem invisible. This is your reply to my post on the greatest commandments, and I cannot understand how you came to say the following post was based on some abstract concept of love.

Originally Posted by Eric Hyom

Greetings and peace be with you agiosotheos;

All the law and the prophets of God hang on the greatest commandments, if only we could hang unity on these commandments, then everything else would fall into place.

blessings,

Eric

Love cannot be true while truth is compromised. As such, the dogmatic Tradition of the Church cannot be compromised for the sake of some abstract concept of "love"

. Because that would also result in compromising of love itself. There is more fundamental to unity than simply being amicable towards each other.

Blessings

Eric

 

[DavidMark]

Today i was thinking that God’s love is truly the purpose, origin and ultimate destiny of the creation, both conscious and unconscious. Nature just obeys, humans have to seek to love God properly. But some love and hate gets us in trouble…love of things, ideas, idols, idolotrous thoughts --these we must exorcize with prayer and intense effort.

"He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments.
He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth.
Even as thou dost witness in this day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error. That seeker must at all times put his trust in God, must renounce the peoples of the earth, detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords." (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 192)