Christopher Hitchens On Morality Without God

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Good points. I hate to quibble with somebody who’s obviously a respectful person. I think Hammurabi came up with a code, but it was more like rules for a game than human rights. Even if Cicero expounded natural rights, but they weren’t really taken up by classical Roman society, as far as I know.

I don’t know as much about human rights throughout history in Asian countries.
Thanks, John – I enjoy your thoughts as well. I think you make a fair point that our western humanistic values would not exist in their present form without the influence of Jesus and of Christianity in general. Of course, Buddhism and Jainism did develop the notion of “compassion for all sentient beings” – including for animals – independently, even a few centuries prior to the birth of Christ. Buddha counseled loving one’s enemies (“hatred does not cease by hatred; hatred ceases by love, this is an eternal law”) which arguably anticipates Christianity more directly than did Mosaic law (“you have heard it said, ‘you shall love your friends and hate your enemies, but I say to you…’”). And the pre-Christian law of Hammurabi did not permit stealing and wanton murder; nor did cooperation or bonds of affection fail to exist prior to Christ, even though he expanded on social values that already existed.

There’s also Cicero, the Roman orator and jurist, who was one of the first proponents of natural law; granted, he was a theist, but not a Christian.

I think the basic insight of a humanistic ethic echoes a memorable line from the novel Tuesdays with Morrie – “we love each other, or we die.” It’s a matter of collective survival, literally so, in this age of modern warfare and of nuclear energy. Even Nietzsche didn’t anticipate that a wanton glorification of war and of “non-cooperation” could lead to the collective annihilation of humanity. Chemical warfare as used in World War I, let alone the atomic bomb (an image of hell on earth, and of mutual destruction) was not something Nietzsche had conceived of.

The basic axiom of a humanistic ethic, its fundamental assumption which itself is not subject to being proven – that which it holds to be self-evident – is that life is a fundamental human value. Based on this single axiom, one can make arguments as to that which is objectively necessary for our collective survival – peaceful coexistence, respect, cooperation, mutual aid. Legally, its primary maxim is an extension of the pre-Christian Hippocratic oath — “do no harm,” which is not to say that Christianity has not provided great impetus to it.

youtube.com/watch?v=J7ErrZ-ipoE
 
Atheism, in and of itself, is indeed the non-belief in a supreme being, nothing more. And this does imply, common sensically, that – since nature is indifferent to human conduct – so must the cosmos itself be indifferent to human conduct. But an atheist philosopher or social thinker still can argue for man-made rules of conduct and social norms, based on fairly fundamental axioms that are inter-subjectively held. In other words, not on mere subjective preference, but on an understanding of what the inter-subjective preference of millions of humans beings is, and then an objective understanding of the best way to achieve those inter-subjective preferences. It holds pretty tight, and pretty stable, like a common currency.
This social contract model of ethics need not be derived from atheism, but could be held just as consistently by a deist or even a theist. Humans share a common outlook in terms of what makes a life worth living and so inter-subjective preferences can derive from common human values whether those are held by a theist, atheist or deist.

The reason for this, Is suspect, is that a distinction can be made between the motives a moral agent has for upholding moral values and the rational basis or grounds from which those values derive. Your explanation seems to focus more on the motivations individuals might have for being moral, but does not capture completely the essence of what moral means as a concept.

Even theists may differ from one another in the motives they have for following moral rules: one because of fear of the consequences of breaking them, another out of profound respect for the deeper meaning of life and a will to align one’s existence with the greater purpose that transcendent qualities bring to reality.

While atheists may subscribe to various moral outlooks, there is nothing in atheism itself that provides grounds for any moral standards, although particular atheists may develop moral standards and have consistent motives for following these, there is nothing in atheism that leads a reasonable person inexorably to a particular system of ethics.

The reason is because, as you pointed out, the universe, in strictly material terms, cannot and does not particularly “care” whether humans act morally or not. An atheist cannot argue from a materialistic universe to a system of ethics the way a theist can develop a variety of models and motives for acting morally.
I don’t believe that human societies decreed that stealing was wrong, and that murder was wrong, based on any divine revelation or even metaphysical reasoning. Instead, I think people came to the recognition that, if they don’t want to be stolen from or murdered, that they have to refrain from trying to do so, to others. Thus, social norms became a kind of truce. This was the most pragmatic level. This abstract principle – “stealing is wrong” – was derived from this dynamics of human interrelationships. From there, human empathy was enhanced-- just as we developed our intelligence – such that one could feel guilt or remorse at stealing from someone, or murdering someone. Human empathy was already a constant, because humans naturally form attachments and alliances. If that weren’t the case, probably no infant would have survived until adulthood, nor would there be any such thing as a public language. For language, obviously, is based on social cooperation and the agreed upon meaning of words.

Similarly, he could say, “I declare that a $1 dollar is worth $20 dollars. You want $20 dollars for what I purchase from you, I give you $1. Why should I subscribe to your valuation of currency, which is arbitrary?”

If he doesn’t care to live in society at all – to speak a common language – to respect a common currency – and to adhere to certain basic values of social conduct – then you have a “public enemy” on your hands. As stated above, though, I doubt that religious arguments would be very convincing to such an individual, either. Obviously, in the world as it actually exists, religious arguments are not very convincing, to such individuals (until they are incarcerated, and have the opportunity to appreciate what a “bitter pill” their behavior has been, and how severe the unintended consequences).
Although this is interesting as a “case history” in the development of morals and attempts to explain why some (perhaps many) people are motivated to behave morally, it doesn’t explain what is meant by the concept of “moral” in a complete sense. It isn’t true that all individuals act morally because they want to be treated morally in return. The highest moral thinking would insist that we ought to act morally despite not being treated morally. If this were not the case, then why would it not be permissible to act immorally towards those who do not behave morally?

Further, if moral values are merely the “common currency” then nothing precludes moral deflation from taking place in human societies such that by common agreement human life or other moral commodities undergo periods of devaluation. Certainly, this may happen, in fact, the devaluation of human slaves, for example, but that we can decry such periods in history means that the common currency is not set by market value, but by reference to outside standards.

Money is not valued for its own sake, but only has value in relation to other goods. In itself, money is valueless. I don’t know of many who would argue that moral values are subject to this kind of contingent valuation. There seems to be something missing concerning the meaning of moral value in your explanation.
 
If you don’t like flaming fundamentalists so much, why are you spending so much time here? :confused: Perhaps you enjoy being irritable? 😉
I like CAF because there are very few flaming fundamentalists here, although I do run into one or two every so often.
What I find disconcerting about the pattern of your posts is that you challenge Catholic and conservative morals so willingly, but never defend the flaming liberal positions to which you subscribe. You deny, deny, deny, but hardly ever offer a reasonable reply to salient arguments much beyond one-liners such as “these arguments are not convincing.”
It’s not my problem if the majority of the population find flaming fundamentalists unconvincing, but by all means send me a PM and we’ll discuss it. Here though, as the moderator says, discuss the subject and not each other.
*So, adieu!
Have a good day! :D*
Oh, you off then? See you around. 👋
 
I don’t believe that human societies decreed that stealing was wrong, and that murder was wrong, based on any divine revelation or even metaphysical reasoning. Instead, I think people came to the recognition that, if they don’t want to be stolen from or murdered, that they have to refrain from trying to do so, to others. Thus, social norms became a kind of truce. This was the most pragmatic level.
I agree with your post, although I’d go further and say some aspects of morality aren’t even a matter of recognition but are built into us.

All social species exhibit cooperative behaviors, and it seems that in us too, moral behaviors involve raw emotion and intuition as well as conscious thought, the irrational heart in addition to the rational head.

Evidence from moral dilemmas such as the trolley problem appears to back this up, with people responding differently according to how the dilemma is set.

This implies that morality can’t be completely absolutist and set in stone, sometimes we have to wrestle it out case by case.

I think this is recognized in Christian ethics, in replacing the Old Covenant with the New:

*I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts. - Heb 8:10

They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. - Rom 2:14-15*
 
It is certainly a bit misleading when theists claim that atheists cannot be moral. Humans do have moral impulses. In the theistic conception of human nature, it would make sense that all humans, even those who are not religious, would act morally in most cases. The idea is just that religion brings one closer to moral perfection (though, of course, one can’t actually achieve moral perfection with or without religion). I don’t think our moral impulses are so simple, though, that they can be fully explained by a desire for reciprocity.

Voting in the recent presidential election made me feel very bad because I had a strong feeling that, by voting for either major party, I had to compromise my moral convictions. (I was an atheist at the time.) (I did not support abortion and did not agree with fiscal conservatism.) My vote could not have mattered; my state was slated to go for a particular candidate, and though I voted, I knew I would not influence the election. I wasn’t getting anything out of voting, but I still had a desire to vote in a way that reflected my moral position. And I was troubled by the fact that I could not really do that.

There is not really a reciprocal advantage here. And this I think is the problem with insisting that morality is self-evident. To a large extent it is, and I think part of the difficulty in debates about morality is that we’re forced to highlight the points where we disagree and we act like morality is polar. We agree that stealing and murder are bad; most of us would not do either of them, God or not, and that is an important point.

But secular society has defined personhood in such a way, for instance, so that abortion is not murder. So the issue of murder is not clear cut. Some atheists (theists will claim) do condone murder. If the atheists are right and there is no God, then there is no objective consequence for killing fetuses. It’s fine because we don’t need to preserve the lives of fetuses since they are not able to help preserve our lives. If society can reach a point of emotional detachment, it becomes morally acceptable.

There is nothing wrong with this from an atheistic moral viewpoint. And while that makes me uncomfortable, I acknowledge that in itself it is not a proof for God and/or objective morality.

I am personally trying to view my moral impulses in terms of God’s intention. I could feasibly think of an evolutionary explanation for them. That’s what I’ve done throughout most of my life. But I don’t know.
 
It is certainly a bit misleading when theists claim that atheists cannot be moral.
Thank you for your interesting post. While the rest of your post was informative of your point of view, I want to focus on this particular line because it does highlight a confusing aspect of this issue.

I am not clear that any theist would claim atheists cannot be moral. The claim is more along the lines of seeking to understand the grounds from which moral reasoning can proceed for an atheist from a merely materialistic, purposeless universe, absent God.

For my part, I question whether anyone can reason from a purposeless universe where moral values are only subjective and of human derivation to a categorical “therefore” human beings are obligated to act in particular ways.

If the source of the universe itself, aka God, endows all being with purpose and moral value, then, logically speaking, that value is intrinsic to being itself. Moral qualities and moral agency derive from Being or Existence itself.

However, if the ground of being is merely material and without moral purpose, then moral values are transitory and ad hoc in essence.

This does not preclude non-believers from acting morally, but their reasons for doing so can only be conditional ones (If I want…, then I should …), not categorical or imperative (Humans must…), in the Kantian sense.

The moral status of Hitler’s actions, for example, is reduced from reprehensible in an absolute sense, to merely one of personal distaste. There is nothing like a sense of heinous objective evil that can be derived from mere alterations to biochemical interactions. Absolute moral value cannot be assigned to any wispy illusory being that is merely a shadow cast up from inexorable machinations of chemicals. It may be unfortunate that such wisps suffer and or die, but no reasonable case can be made that such “wisps” have anything more than subjective, illusory moral value.

If human beings are nothing more than sophisticated computers, then it is not clear why dismantling them has much moral bearing in the traditional sense. This is why euthanasia, for example, is treated quite differently by atheists as it is by most thoughtful Christians.

The problem, it seems to me, and the reason why atheists are loathe to abandon traditional moral ideals completely, is precisely because to hold to the logical moral consequences of materialism could be a colossal error, morally speaking. Atheists know that they might be wrong and are hedging their bets by maintaining a traditional ethical position even though the logical entailment of materialism means human beings are nothing but purposeless beings in a causally determined system which endows no moral value on any chance existents within it.

If moral value is merely subjectively (limited to human subjects) endowed, then Hitler was no more “wrong” in holding to his view since there is no absolute standard for evaluating some subjective views over others.
 
I agree with just about everything you’ve said. 👍

I don’t mean that theists actively “claim” that atheists are immoral. I am more gesturing toward the common occurrence in debates about morality where theists wind up insisting that there is nothing that makes, say, Hitler’s actions wrong without God. I find this to be an unfortunate consequence of closely debating these issues, because I don’t think we mean to say that atheists should act like Hitler if they do not believe in God. I agree completely that it comes down to whether or not one has an objective, rational basis for his actions.

And that has really been my issue with atheism. I have been (until recently) an atheist. There is some “moral” impulse in me (though not an objective moral impulse, from an atheistic perspective) that prevents me from murdering people when I get angry at them. But I also have a moral impulse that abortion is wrong, which other atheists lack.
The problem, it seems to me, and the reason why atheists are loathe to abandon traditional moral ideals completely, is precisely because to hold to the logical moral consequences of materialism could be a colossal error, morally speaking. Atheists know that they might be wrong and are hedging their bets by maintaining a traditional ethical position even though the logical entailment of materialism means human beings are nothing but purposeless beings in a causally determined system which endows no moral value on any chance existents within it.
This, I think, is part of it, but I am hesitant to think that all atheists act with this mindset. (Incidentally this was part of my mindset as an atheist. I was born Catholic and received a Catholic education, so Catholic morality appeals to me and I wanted to synthesize it with atheism. But the more I thought about it, the less sense it made to do so.) I do not think many atheists would consciously affirm that there are moral consequences for their actions. I do think that our society inculcates even atheists into believing that there are objective moral principles that we ought not to violate. When pressed, I do not think that atheists will articulate these as objective. Examples:
  • “Don’t judge others.”
  • “Don’t violate others’ freedom.”
  • “Humans have specific rights.”
    These are premises that I think are, in practice, adhered to religiously by secular persons. They are treated as absolute insofar that when others violated them, it is pointed out and contested, even though from an atheistic point of view, no one really has a right to do this.
 
If the atheists are right and there is no God, then there is no objective consequence for killing fetuses. It’s fine because we don’t need to preserve the lives of fetuses since they are not able to help preserve our lives. If society can reach a point of emotional detachment, it becomes morally acceptable.

There is nothing wrong with this from an atheistic moral viewpoint. And while that makes me uncomfortable, I acknowledge that in itself it is not a proof for God and/or objective morality.

I am personally trying to view my moral impulses in terms of God’s intention. I could feasibly think of an evolutionary explanation for them. That’s what I’ve done throughout most of my life. But I don’t know.
I think there’s a pragmatic reason – aside from the moral arguments for and against – why abortion has proven so elusive to criminalize. Namely, what we call rights in our society is not normally something that individuals altruistically decide to grant on behalf of others. Rather, it is those personally affected – those who have the most to gain, and to lose, from the issue – who tend to raise their voices in protest. Those personally affected care about it so much – and so completely – that they can spend every waking moment devoted to that cause, and will not rest until that cause is achieved.

This is obviously the case with the women’s rights movement, as it was with the civil rights movement. Altruistic concern for others is always a factor in what we call social progress, but it pales in comparison to people fighting for their own rights. It hits much closer to home, so the passion with which they fight for their rights is incredibly intense, as it was for someone like Martin Luther King, who was also fighting for his own rights, and those of his children and grandchildren, as well as his community. He was the best spokesman for the civil rights movement, because he himself was a black man subject to discrimination; just as Gandhi, as an Indian subject to discrimination, was an ideal spokesperson for his own movement (and much of his passion was derived from an experience of racism on a railway in South Africa, as a young man, where he was informed he was not permitted to sit in a first class cabin; that passionate commitment came from the fact that it was not purely disinterested on his part, but very personal and close to home).

This disturbs our sensibilities, in a way, because there is an important element of self-interest or personal investment in such social crusades. Generally, people fight for their own rights with much more commitment than others can ever hope to fight on their behalf.

But there is, alas, no unborn fetus that gather together with other unborn fetuses, to fight for its rights and to remind others in its own voice that it is human and wants the right to live. If we were speaking of children, you can be sure that a newborn’s or young child’s parents would fight with that same degree of personal investment and passion. Indeed, if one’s child had been subject to some form of discrimination, a parent – and all affected parents – would fight, quite “selfishly”, for justice for their own flesh and blood.

With abortion, of course, it is the parents themselves that do not want the pregnancy, which largely removes the personal element – the fetus cannot advocate for itself, and the parent is not advocating for the fetus, either. If someone else were trying to harm a woman’s fetus, you can be sure that the fight would be fierce and intense, with the parents leading the charge. But these are parents dealing with “their own” unwanted pregnancies, so the personal element – that same personal stake, that fire in the belly, that existed with the civil rights movement, and the women’s rights movement, and which now exists in the gay rights movement – is largely missing. That leaves those who are fighting in the name of altruism, and in the name of the moral principle of respect for life. There were such individuals in the civil rights movement, and in the women’s rights movement, but these movements did not rely solely on this. That is, they did not solely rely on people fighting altruistically on behalf of others, but also “selfishly” on behalf of themselves. The motivation, I dare say, is tenfold, when it’s your own neck on the line – at least, in the majority of cases (which does not preclude a minority of highly moral individuals who are so passionately committed, though perhaps not always as passionately committed as they would like to believe they are).
 
The moral status of Hitler’s actions, for example, is reduced from reprehensible in an absolute sense, to merely one of personal distaste. There is nothing like a sense of heinous objective evil that can be derived from mere alterations to biochemical interactions. Absolute moral value cannot be assigned to any wispy illusory being that is merely a shadow cast up from inexorable machinations of chemicals. It may be unfortunate that such wisps suffer and or die, but no reasonable case can be made that such “wisps” have anything more than subjective, illusory moral value.
The Buddhists are an interesting case, in this respect. To a very large extent, a Buddhist sensibility is “amoral” in the neutral sense of the word.

Non-believers can judge similarly, regarding someone like Hitler. In other words, Hitler is not an “evil” man, in a traditional sense, more like a natural disaster personified.

I don’t say that a hurricane, an earthquake, an outbreaks of cholera, or of Bubonic plague, are “evil” in a sense that they would rouse my moral indignation. But that Hitler was a “living, breathing natural disaster” – that could be said by a non-believer. In other words, not evil, but “bad” – assuming life is a value and something that is overwhelmingly, wantonly destructive is to be avoided, which is a pretty basic axiom for human life (if it weren’t, the whole discussion would be irrelevant, because we wouldn’t be here!)

“Cancer incarnate” – that is another amoral formulation of it, though still a quite strong one. “Death and destruction incarnate, destroying – utterly laying waste to – everything he came into contact with. Hatred personified.”

I think Socrates (Xenophon’s version, not Plato’s), once made an amoral evaluation of human behavior, when someone asked him, “when someone wrongs you, don’t you feel offended?” He replied, “if someone wrongs me, why should I be offended? Am I offended if my mule kicks me?” He could have added, “am I morally offended by a bee’s sting?”

To a large extent, this means viewing certain human behaviors the way we would view – for example – certain diseases (cancer, smallpox), or hurricanes, tornadoes, and tsunamis. Not morally evil, per se, but “an evil” to be avoided, just as a doctor will treat his patients with medicine, not with poison.

With the Buddhists, I think a large part of it is that they find moral indignation, in itself, to be a potentially harmful emotion. Indeed, a lot of violence in our world has been committed in the name of moral indignation, and certainly there is much hatred or bitterness associated with the human moral impulse. With the Buddhists, it is more “objective apprehension” that a certain form of behavior will bring about undesirable consequences. It is in the same nature as Spinoza’s call to calmness, when he says, “not to love, not to hate, but to understand.”

In an important sense, our justice system cultivates a certain “coolness” in its application of due process and the right to a fair trial. Red-hot moral indignation could say, “how can you even think, for one moment, of not acting the swiftest and strongest of condemnations! Look how heinous the crime was!” That justice system can even assume that the perpetrator is innocent until proven guilty, no matter how obviously common sense indicates otherwise.
 
The Buddhists are an interesting case, in this respect. To a very large extent, a Buddhist sensibility is “amoral” in the neutral sense of the word.

Non-believers can judge similarly, regarding someone like Hitler. In other words, Hitler is not an “evil” man, in a traditional sense, more like a natural disaster personified.
Great post! I need time to mull it over.
 
poly**

And that has really been my issue with atheism. I have been (until recently) an atheist. There is some “moral” impulse in me (though not an objective moral impulse, from an atheistic perspective) that prevents me from murdering people when I get angry at them. But I also have a moral impulse that abortion is wrong, which other atheists lack.**

Your thinking is consistent with the very Catholic natural law theory of morality. Atheists who disagree with you about abortion are denying the natural law that was built into them at their creation. The same goes for Catholics who champion the idea of same-sex marriage.
 
Non-believers can judge similarly, regarding someone like Hitler. In other words, Hitler is not an “evil” man, in a traditional sense, more like a natural disaster personified.

I don’t say that a hurricane, an earthquake, an outbreaks of cholera, or of Bubonic plague, are “evil” in a sense that they would rouse my moral indignation. But that Hitler was a “living, breathing natural disaster” – that could be said by a non-believer. In other words, not evil, but “bad” – assuming life is a value and something that is overwhelmingly, wantonly destructive is to be avoided, which is a pretty basic axiom for human life (if it weren’t, the whole discussion would be irrelevant, because we wouldn’t be here!)
At this point, we would have to make a distinction between agents and events. We would not be indignant with hurricanes, et al, because these are events that have no way of “knowing better” and therefore no possibility of having done differently. Moral agents rouse moral indignation precisely because they could have acted differently but didn’t. By proposing this correlation between events and agents, you seem to be surreptitiously implying that agents ought to be treated as events because they could not have acted differently. I would take exception with that as a libertarian regarding free will and moral agency. I am not convinced that Hitler should be merely seen as a natural disaster because his actions derived from a moral will not a causal chain of events.
“Cancer incarnate” – that is another amoral formulation of it, though still a quite strong one. “Death and destruction incarnate, destroying – utterly laying waste to – everything he came into contact with. Hatred personified.”
This begins to approach the idea of a malevolent will. Hitler acted out of willful malice and could have acted otherwise, which is why his actions raise indignation from agents of good will. It is the malice in his will that causes indignation on the part of other moral agents,
I think Socrates (Xenophon’s version, not Plato’s), once made an amoral evaluation of human behavior, when someone asked him, “when someone wrongs you, don’t you feel offended?” He replied, “if someone wrongs me, why should I be offended? Am I offended if my mule kicks me?” He could have added, “am I morally offended by a bee’s sting?”

To a large extent, this means viewing certain human behaviors the way we would view – for example – certain diseases (cancer, smallpox), or hurricanes, tornadoes, and tsunamis. Not morally evil, per se, but “an evil” to be avoided, just as a doctor will treat his patients with medicine, not with poison.

With the Buddhists, I think a large part of it is that they find moral indignation, in itself, to be a potentially harmful emotion. Indeed, a lot of violence in our world has been committed in the name of moral indignation, and certainly there is much hatred or bitterness associated with the human moral impulse. With the Buddhists, it is more “objective apprehension” that a certain form of behavior will bring about undesirable consequences. It is in the same nature as Spinoza’s call to calmness, when he says, “not to love, not to hate, but to understand.”

In an important sense, our justice system cultivates a certain “coolness” in its application of due process and the right to a fair trial. Red-hot moral indignation could say, “how can you even think, for one moment, of not acting the swiftest and strongest of condemnations! Look how heinous the crime was!” That justice system can even assume that the perpetrator is innocent until proven guilty, no matter how obviously common sense indicates otherwise.
I would argue that moral indignation need not be accompanied by negative emotive qualities such as vengeance, anger or hatred. None of these are necessary correlatives of moral indignation. Moral indignation can be quite cool in continuing to will the positive good even of malevolent moral agents, at least to the point that the evil wills of these agents can be rectified.

In theological terms it would be justice tempered by mercy or forgiveness. Being ready to forgive and bring about the rehabilitation of those prone to evil can be quite consistent with moral indignation at evil perpetrated. Moral indignation need not require the destruction of those who carry out evil. Now the question of whether a moral agent can become so entrenched as an evil will that redemption is impossible would mean that justice could coolly dispatch the means by which to remedy the evil will. Even that need not be done with red hot emotion, but rather, with deliberate execution of what justice demands since no other alternative exists for a will entrenched in the commission of evil.
 
Morality without God is impossible. God’s goodness is the ground for the Moral Law.

Mat. 22, 34-40 " The Greatest Commandment.* 34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them [a scholar of the law]* tested him by asking, 36 “Teacher,* which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him,* “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 The second is like it:* You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40* The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

And the reason why there is so much disagreement about the moral law is that Mankind has rejected God and/or Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church, through whom God’s moral law is handed on and interpreted.

God intended for the whole human race follow this law. And because it does’nt there is an ever rising discord. All sins distroy the fabric of unity between men and between men and God, leading to evils innumerable and eventual destruction for mankind.

Even " private " sins which do no physical, emotional, economic harm to others and/or do not involve injustice to others, are still deadly to the moral unity of mankind and the relationship of mankind to God.

Thus, the Moral Law is grounded on the Goodness of God, handed on to Jesus Christ who established the Catholic Church, through whom the Holy Spirit interprets the whole Moral Law.

Therefore, so called alternative moral systems do will not answer the demands of God’s plan for Salvation. Only obedience to the Moral Law as interpreted by the Catholic Church will satisfy those demands. In other words the future of the human race and the future of the physical universe depends on universal obedience to that law and no other.
 
At this point, we would have to make a distinction between agents and events. We would not be indignant with hurricanes, et al, because these are events that have no way of “knowing better” and therefore no possibility of having done differently. Moral agents rouse moral indignation precisely because they could have acted differently but didn’t. By proposing this correlation between events and agents, you seem to be surreptitiously implying that agents ought to be treated as events because they could not have acted differently. I would take exception with that as a libertarian regarding free will and moral agency. I am not convinced that Hitler should be merely seen as a natural disaster because his actions derived from a moral will not a causal chain of events.
I am glad my “natural disaster” comparison has stimulated some interesting discussion! 🙂

I think that this amoral orientation, which I am describing as Buddhist – but which could also be described as Epicurean – would say that, even with free will, there is no moral significance of an action in the Christian sense of the word (even though Buddhism, as I understand it, speaks of “morals” but in a non-Christian sense).

Take the example of someone who drinks too much wine. This is a vice, a potentially harmful and self-destructive one. Or, let’s take the further example of someone who eats too much chocolate. It may not be clear-cut to a Christian whether this vice is truly moral in significance, in the sense of being a sin for which forgiveness must be granted.

In other words, though free will is involved – one could drink less wine, or eat less chocolate – this still may be neither moral nor immoral, chalked up to a vice or even to mere personal weakness. Gluttony as sinful behavior complicates the analogy, but my point is that some decisions – even from a Christian perspective – are neither moral nor immoral, even as they are deemed unwise or imprudent, a “bad decision.” Having a calorie-laden dessert after a meal might be considered another example, or having one’s chicken sandwich fried instead of grilled (despite one’s having high cholesterol).

From this amoral perspective, the same would go for behavior that is clearly immoral from a Christian perspective, such as murder. From a social perspective and the perspective of others, it is still poisonous, destructive behavior, indeed comparable to a “social calamity.” It’s a poison in the way that alcohol or the tar from cigarettes are poisons; or, in the way that strychnine is a poison. That behaving in this “calamitous” way was freely chosen by the agent committing the murder, doesn’t change the fact that a murderer is a socially toxic agent.

One could still argue that the murderer serves his own interests, even as he harms others – in other words, what is poison for society is nourishment to himself – though the Buddhist (and Epicurean) would go further by arguing that the murderer harms himself, as well. They mean this in the ultimate sense that, until an individual learns to relate to others with compassion and understanding, true joy and inner peace will be unattainable (which a Christian would probably agree with, as “counterfeit joy” is not joy, and authentic joy can never be part of the wages of sin). So they would say that harming others largely is fueled by ignorance, just as it would be ignorant to put one’s hand in the fire and expect not to get burned; an ignorance of cause and effect.

It’s true that moral indignation in the sense of anger – even loathing – is indeed dissociable from moral judgment in general. But this amoral understanding of human behavior goes further and describes an immoral choice as a poor and harmful choice – harmful to others, and ultimately harmful to self.

You could say that this amoral perspective, which seeks to replace good behavior with wise, prudent, or sensible behavior, is not so far from Jesus’ comment, “forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.” From the perspective of an Epicurean (or, perhaps, a Buddhist) one does wrong out of weakness (like eating too much chocolate) or out of ignorance (thinking that one can play with fire without getting burned).

It’s important to point out, though, that the Epicurean’s or Buddhist’s definition of what constitutes wise, prudent, or sensible behavior is “super-subtle.” Indeed, wisdom goes beyond superficial appearances. Thus, Epicurus wrote, “It is better for you to be free of fear lying upon a bed of straw than to have a golden couch and a lavish table and be full of trouble.” Or Xenophon’s Socrates observed (paraphrasing), “how interesting that a typical person can tell you exactly what their land is worth, and exactly how much money they have, but cannot tell you how many friends they possess. If they were wise, they would understand that the latter is of infinitely more importance to happiness than the former, though it would seem as if they don’t truly believe this.”

Of course, a basic axiom is necessary to be able to reason about wisdom, and that is that wisdom is the means to “true happiness” or true fulfillment in life, and that true happiness or fulfillment is an intrinsically worthwhile goal. It’s taken as an existential given, as self-evident, though it is indeed an unprovable assumption (albeit all but universally shared by human beings, and perhaps by sentient beings in general). In its own way, though, a theistic morality that takes God as a fundamental axiom is still subject to uncertainty or disagreement over whether that axiom is provable, or is rather an article of faith.
 
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