Chrysostom on Peter

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A catholic sister on another forum posted these quotes as being from Chrysostom, i’ve searched hard to find them in context even though they say where they are from I can’t find any of them??? Can any of you help warriorangel? and show me these IN context? everything in orange is her post********

Actually those are the references St Chrysostom used.

“…If the primacy of St. Peter is so unimportant a fact – if it gave him no prerogatives, no duties, no successors – why on earth is it so extraordinarily prominent in Holy Writ?”

link
Code: 
"Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received the revelation not from man but from the Father....this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey." (De Eleemos III, 4, vol II, 298[300])
"Peter the coryphaeus of the choir of apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the foundation of the faith, the base of the confession, the fisherman of the world, who brought back our race form the depth of error to heaven, he who is everywhere fervent and full of boldness, or rather of love than of boldness." (Hom de decem mille talentis, 3, vol III, 20[4])
"The first of the apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of the disciples." (Ad eos qui scandalizati sunt, 17, vol III, 517[504])
"The foundation of the Church, the vehement lover of Christ, at once unlearned in speech, and the vanquisher of orators, the man without education who closed the mouth of philosophers, who destroyed the philosophy of the Greeks as though it were a spider's web, he who ran throughout the world, he who cast his net into the sea, and fished the whole world." (In illud, Vidi dominum, 3, vol VI, 123[124])
"Peter, the base, the pillar...." (Hom Quod frequenta conueniendum sit, 5, vol XII, 466[328])
"This holy coryphaeus of the blessed choir, the lover of Christ, the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, he who received the spiritual revelation." (In Acta Apost VI, I [chap 2, verse 22] vol IX, 56[48])
We shall meet presently with many more passages of the same kind. In the doubtfully genuine homily of SS. Peter and Elias (vol II, 727[731]) we find:
Code: 
"Peter was to be entrusted with the keys of the church, or, rather, he was entrusted with the keys of heaven, and he was to be entrusted with the multitude of the people....That Peter the head of the apostles, the unshaken foundation, the unbroken rock, the first in the Church, the unconquerable port, the unshaken tower...he who was to be entrusted with the Church, the pillar of the Church, the port of the faith, Peter, the teacher of the whole world...Peter, that column, that bulwark."

"See the unanimity of the apostles," he says, on Acts 2:4: "they give up to Peter the office of preaching, for it would not do for all to preach." "Hear how this same John, who now comes forward (to ask for a seat at Christ's right hand) in the Acts of the Apostles, always gives up the first place to Peter both in preaching and in working miracles. Afterwards James and John were not thus. Everywhere they gave up the first place to Peter, and in preaching they set him first, though he seemed of rougher manners than the others."

etc etc etc

Examining 90 Passages on Peter from St. John Chrysostom
 
Sorry, I could hardly read the message in bright colors

A catholic sister on another forum posted these quotes as being from Chrysostom, i’ve searched hard to find them in context even though they say where they are from I can’t find any of them??? Can any of you help warriorangel? and show me these IN context? everything in orange is her post

Actually those are the references St Chrysostom used.

“…If the primacy of St. Peter is so unimportant a fact – if it gave him no prerogatives, no duties, no successors – why on earth is it so extraordinarily prominent in Holy Writ?”

link

“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received the revelation not from man but from the Father…this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” (De Eleemos III, 4, vol II, 298[300])
“Peter the coryphaeus of the choir of apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the foundation of the faith, the base of the confession, the fisherman of the world, who brought back our race form the depth of error to heaven, he who is everywhere fervent and full of boldness, or rather of love than of boldness.” (Hom de decem mille talentis, 3, vol III, 20[4])
“The first of the apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of the disciples.” (Ad eos qui scandalizati sunt, 17, vol III, 517[504])
“The foundation of the Church, the vehement lover of Christ, at once unlearned in speech, and the vanquisher of orators, the man without education who closed the mouth of philosophers, who destroyed the philosophy of the Greeks as though it were a spider’s web, he who ran throughout the world, he who cast his net into the sea, and fished the whole world.” (In illud, Vidi dominum, 3, vol VI, 123[124])
“Peter, the base, the pillar…” (Hom Quod frequenta conueniendum sit, 5, vol XII, 466[328])
“This holy coryphaeus of the blessed choir, the lover of Christ, the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, he who received the spiritual revelation.” (In Acta Apost VI, I [chap 2, verse 22] vol IX, 56[48])

We shall meet presently with many more passages of the same kind. In the doubtfully genuine homily of SS. Peter and Elias (vol II, 727[731]) we find:

“Peter was to be entrusted with the keys of the church, or, rather, he was entrusted with the keys of heaven, and he was to be entrusted with the multitude of the people…That Peter the head of the apostles, the unshaken foundation, the unbroken rock, the first in the Church, the unconquerable port, the unshaken tower…he who was to be entrusted with the Church, the pillar of the Church, the port of the faith, Peter, the teacher of the whole world…Peter, that column, that bulwark.”

“See the unanimity of the apostles,” he says, on Acts 2:4: “they give up to Peter the office of preaching, for it would not do for all to preach.” “Hear how this same John, who now comes forward (to ask for a seat at Christ’s right hand) in the Acts of the Apostles, always gives up the first place to Peter both in preaching and in working miracles. Afterwards James and John were not thus. Everywhere they gave up the first place to Peter, and in preaching they set him first, though he seemed of rougher manners than the others.”

etc etc etc

Examining 90 Passages on Peter from St. John Chrysostom
 
myfavoritmartin said:
A catholic sister on another forum posted these quotes as being from Chrysostom, i’ve searched hard to find them in context even though they say where they are from I can’t find any of them??? Can any of you help warriorangel? and show me these IN context? everything in orange is her post********

Actually those are the references St Chrysostom used.

“…If the primacy of St. Peter is so unimportant a fact – if it gave him no prerogatives, no duties, no successors – why on earth is it so extraordinarily prominent in Holy Writ?”

link
Code: 
"Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received the revelation not from man but from the Father....this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey." (De Eleemos III, 4, vol II, 298[300])
"Peter the coryphaeus of the choir of apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the foundation of the faith, the base of the confession, the fisherman of the world, who brought back our race form the depth of error to heaven, he who is everywhere fervent and full of boldness, or rather of love than of boldness." (Hom de decem mille talentis, 3, vol III, 20[4])
"The first of the apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of the disciples." (Ad eos qui scandalizati sunt, 17, vol III, 517[504])
"The foundation of the Church, the vehement lover of Christ, at once unlearned in speech, and the vanquisher of orators, the man without education who closed the mouth of philosophers, who destroyed the philosophy of the Greeks as though it were a spider's web, he who ran throughout the world, he who cast his net into the sea, and fished the whole world." (In illud, Vidi dominum, 3, vol VI, 123[124])
"Peter, the base, the pillar...." (Hom Quod frequenta conueniendum sit, 5, vol XII, 466[328])
"This holy coryphaeus of the blessed choir, the lover of Christ, the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, he who received the spiritual revelation." (In Acta Apost VI, I [chap 2, verse 22] vol IX, 56[48])
We shall meet presently with many more passages of the same kind. In the doubtfully genuine homily of SS. Peter and Elias (vol II, 727[731]) we find:
Code: 
"Peter was to be entrusted with the keys of the church, or, rather, he was entrusted with the keys of heaven, and he was to be entrusted with the multitude of the people....That Peter the head of the apostles, the unshaken foundation, the unbroken rock, the first in the Church, the unconquerable port, the unshaken tower...he who was to be entrusted with the Church, the pillar of the Church, the port of the faith, Peter, the teacher of the whole world...Peter, that column, that bulwark."

"See the unanimity of the apostles," he says, on Acts 2:4: "they give up to Peter the office of preaching, for it would not do for all to preach." "Hear how this same John, who now comes forward (to ask for a seat at Christ's right hand) in the Acts of the Apostles, always gives up the first place to Peter both in preaching and in working miracles. Afterwards James and John were not thus. Everywhere they gave up the first place to Peter, and in preaching they set him first, though he seemed of rougher manners than the others."

etc etc etc

Examining 90 Passages on Peter from St. John Chrysostom
Click to expand...
Well, I know where you won’t find them: his exegesis on Matthew 16.

If he believed so much like the Latins on St. Peter, you’d sorta expect he’d make a big deal out of their favorite proof text, no?
 
<< Maybe someone could get philvaz to post the actual writings to which he pulled these from? He’s a regular here, right? >>

The article is from a chapter of a book Studies on the Early Papacy (originally published 1928, but from journal articles dating end/begin of 19th/20th century) by Dom John Chapman. If you think Chapman is taking these writings out of context, it is up to you to go GET the writings, in the ORIGINAL as Chapman has done, and show he is wrong.

If you read the entire article, I don’t know anyone who has gone deeper in the writings of St. John Chrysostom on Peter than Chapman. There are some little quotes, but the majority of the article is showing the larger context of Chrysostom’s position on Peter. So he quotes more than “snippets.” Neither Steve Ray nor William Webster can compare to this monk scholar from 100 years ago. 👍

No I don’t have the originals, since I don’t own MIGNE (the hundreds of volumes of the Fathers in Latin/Greek). MIGNE is available at most university libraries, and much is online. Of course you’d have to learn Greek first, in the case of Chrysostom and the Greek Fathers. Chapman TRANSLATES his citations from MIGNE directly or other critical Greek texts.

There were three series: Latin Fathers to Innocent III (221 volumes); Greek Fathers (to 1438) in Latin translation (85 volumes); and Greek Fathers in Greek and Latin (165 volumes). You want the Greek of Chrysostom, so begin reading with Volumes PG 47-64 or GO HERE for English pdf versions. Good luck. See for example the correspondence between Pope St. Innocent I and St. John Chrysostom.

Phil P
 
Another thing, Chapman gives his sources, it is indeed MIGNE:

NOTE: I add “verify” for the reader is at liberty to dissent from these writers on minor points; and it is best to be severe in keeping a rule of never trusting anyone’s quotations without verifying them. To make this easier, I will try to make my references as accurate as I can. I use Migne’s edition, giving his volumes and pages, adding in brackets the pages of Dom Montfaucon’s edition (the volumes have the same numbers) which Migne reprinted entire, except vol VII which contains the homilies on St. Matthew; this he gives from Field’s edition. The number therefore which I give in brackets, when I quote this volume, refers to Field and not to Montfaucon.

Note also that this journal article (from Studies on the Early Papacy) on St. John Chrysostom was originally written for the “Dublin Review” (January 1903), so other better critical editions of the Greek Fathers are probably available. But Chapman is primarily relying on MIGNE which is still widely available in university libraries, and online.

So again, LEARN GREEK, find the Chrysostom MIGNE volumes, and obliterate Chapman’s arguments to your heart’s content. 😃

Phil P
 
So what we have is Chapman quoting Migne translating Chrysostom? Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly?
 
Isa_Almisry said:
If he believed so much like the Latins on St. Peter, you’d sorta expect he’d make a big deal out of their favorite proof text, no?
Click to expand...
Hi Isa. Hi Myfavorit.

From Homily 54 on Matthew (www.newadvent.org/fathers/200154.htm) :

"2. What then says the mouth of the apostles, Peter, the ever fervent, the leader of the apostolic choir? When all are asked, he answers. And whereas when He asked the opinion of the people, all replied to the question; when He asked their own, Peter springs forward, and anticipates them, and says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matthew 16:16

What then says Christ? “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you.” Matthew 16:17
…

Why then is this man blessed? Because he acknowledged Him very Son. Wherefore you see, that while in those former instances He had said no such thing, in this case He also signifies who had revealed it. That is, lest his words might seem to the many (because he was an earnest lover of Christ) to be words of friendship and flattery, and of a disposition to show favor to Him, he brings forward the person who had made them ringin his soul; to inform you that Peter indeed spoke, but the Father suggested, and that you might believe the saying to be no longer a human opinion, but a divine doctrine.
…

Do you see how the Father reveals the Son, how the Son the Father? For “neither knows any man the Father,” says He, “save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.” It cannot therefore be that one should learn the Son of any other than of the Father; neither that one should learn the Father of any other than of the Son. So that even hereby, their sameness of honor and of substance is manifest.
  1. What then says Christ? “You are Simon, the son of Jonas; you shall be called Cephas.”“Thus since you have proclaimed my Father, I too name him that begat you;” all but saying, “As you are son of Jonas, even so am I of my Father.” Else it were superfluous to say, “You are Son of Jonas;” but since he had said, “Son of God,” to point out that He is so Son of God, as the other son of Jonas, of the same substance with Him that begat Him, therefore He added this, “And I say unto you, You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;” Matthew 16:18 that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. “And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” “And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because you are shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified.”
Then He mentions also another honor. “And I alsowill give you the keys of the heavens.” But what is this, “And I also will give you?” “As the Father has given you to know me, so will I also give you.”

And He said not, “I will entreat the Father” (although the manifestation of His authority was great, and the largeness of the gift unspeakable), but, “I will give you.” What dost Thou give? tell me. “The keys of the heavens, that whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound in Heaven,and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in Heaven.” …
Do you see how He, His own self, leads Peter on to high thoughts of Him, and reveals Himself, and implies that He is Son of God by these two promises? For those things which are peculiar to God alone, (both to absolve sins, and to make the church incapable of overthrow in such assailing waves, and to exhibit a man that is a fisher more solid than any rock, while all the world is at war with him), these He promises Himself to give; as the Father, speaking to Jeremiah, said, He would make him as “a brazen pillar, and as a wall;” but him to one nation only, this man in every part of the world.

I would fain inquire then of those who desire to lessen the dignity of the Son, which manner of gifts were greater, those which the Father gave to Peter, or those which the Son gave him? For the Father gave to Peter the revelation of the Son; but the Son gave him to sow that of the Father and that of Himself in every part of the world; and to a mortal man He entrusted the authority over all things in Heaven, giving him the keys; who extended the church to every part of the world, and declared it to be stronger than heaven."

In other words, Christ shows us His really Divine nature through the extraordinary gifts He gives Peter, by making the fisherman so great.
That does really sound a “big deal”. What are your opinions ?
 
<< So what we have is Chapman quoting Migne translating Chrysostom? Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly? >>

Do you know what Migne is? It is (or was at the time of Chapman’s writing) the largest collection of the COMPLETE Church Fathers writings in their ORIGINAL LANGUAGES. So yeah, if you find the Migne PG (Patrologiae Graecae) John Chrysostom volumes, you get ALL the known and extant writings of Chrysostom in GREEK. Like I said, there may be better editions of Chrysostom that supplement Migne since Chapman’s day.

So Yes, Chapman is reading and translating directly from the GREEK of Chrysostom, using Migne which contains the COMPLETE writings of Chrysostom in GREEK.

If you want something simpler to answer Chapman, go find the Anglican volume Documents Illustrating Papal Authority AD 96-454 by Edward Giles which contains the majority of John Chrysostom’s writings dealing with St. Peter and the Papacy in English, and most of the other patristic passages that were debated between the Anglicans and Catholics of the late 19th / early 20th century. Virtually all of Chapman’s “90 passages” from Chrysostom can be found, with some context, in the Giles volume. I have it in full photocopy.

Chapman himself is a convert from Anglicanism, becoming Catholic at age 25. He wrote many of the articles dealing with the Fathers in the online Catholic Encyclopedia (1913).

Phil P
 
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