Church and State Separation

[harshcshah]

Hypothetically, if a Catholic were to be taking the US citizenship, could he take it in good conscience? Since, the oath includes allegiance to the constitution and the constitution specifies that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” whereas the Church condemns separation of Church and State.

 

[1ke]

Hypothetically , if a Catholic were to be taking the US citizenship, could he take it in good conscience?

Uh. Catholics become US citizens every day.

So, yes.

Since, the oath includes allegiance to the constitution and the constitution specifies that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” whereas the Church condemns separation of Church and State.

The Church does not have a conflict with the establishment clause.

Please provide a source for your assertion that it does.

 

[White_Tree]

the Church condemns separation of Church and State

It does? Really?

I thought Christ said,

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. – Matthew 22:21

 

[Mythicalbio]

Religion was not a separate institution from politics in this time, so it can not possibly mean this. Always keep a close reading, as nothing in the bible was meant for our political situation and culture.

@harshcshah It is a clause that can be modified, and moreover it is not a sin since what the Church condemns is separating the faith from politics, as if God’s moral law doesn’t touch everything He made.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Hypothetically , if a Catholic were to be taking the US citizenship, could he take it in good conscience? Since, the oath includes allegiance to the constitution and the constitution specifies that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” whereas the Church condemns separation of Church and State.

The nuns at my Catholic school didn’t have a problem with us kids saluting the flag, and that was back in the 70s. We pledge allegiance to “the Republic for which (the flag) stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all”.

As a member of the bar in US, I"m also sworn to uphold the Constitution of the USA (and of the specific state where one is getting sworn in). Many thousands of Catholic lawyers, including myself, have no problem with that. If some Thomas More situation arose, then I reckon we would have to support the Church (if we wanted to follow God and be saintly) but that’s highly unlikely and has not happened yet to date.

 

[Mythicalbio]

Does not this implicate one in a sort of lie? One swears to uphold it while knowing you have won’t if anything comes in conflict with God and His law? For reasons like this I swore off swearing and oaths and allegiances except to the Pope, Bishops, and Church in general.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Does not this implicate one in a sort of lie? One swears to uphold it while knowing you have won’t if anything comes in conflict with God and His law?

Nope. That actually sounds like a Protestant argument that Catholics somehow can’t be good Americans or good Presidents because their primary loyalty is to the Pope, not the USA. It’s old and tired. It’s also highly insulting, though I’m not flagging you because I don’t think you meant to insult, but you don’t accuse an attorney taking an oath of “lying”, as that is a very serious offense to attorneys.

If all Catholics refrained from any civil or legal job because it might conflict with their religious beliefs, we’d have no Catholics in law or government. Hardly a good outcome if the idea is to try to steer the country by Catholic principles.

 

[harshcshah]

I thought Christ said,

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. – Matthew 22:21

Implicit in that quote is that Caesar must “render unto God the things that are God’s” too.

It does? Really?

Furthermore, Pope Pius IX included in his Syllabus of Errors the view that “The Church ought to be separated from the State and the State from the Church” and Pope Leo XIII says this in Au milieu des sollicitudes :

In fact, to wish that the State would separate itself from the Church would be to wish, by a logical sequence, that the Church be reduced to the liberty of living according to the law common to all citizens. It is true that in certain countries this state of affairs exists. It is a condition which, if it have numerous and serious inconveniences, also offers some advantages—above all when, by a fortunate inconsistency, the legislator is inspired by Christian principles—and, though these advantages cannot justify the false principle of separation nor authorize its defense, they nevertheless render worthy of toleration a situation which, practically, might be worse (§28)."

Vatican II notes that the Church can work within such settlements and should not rely upon secular authorities for its security. I was genuinely interested to know what one could say to uphold that particular statement in the constitution in good conscience. I refer @1ke to this statement.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Implicit in that quote is that Caesar must “render unto God the things that are God’s” too.

No, Jesus meant that his audience listening to him must render unto God the things that are God’s.
Jesus knew full well that pagan Caesar wasn’t going to do doodly and that Caesar wasn’t there listening and planning to follow him. He wasn’t saying “only pay the tax if Caesar properly worships God”.

 

[Mythicalbio]

I’m Catholic also and don’t mean to insult, I am just wary of oath taking since I consider if I can genuinely commit to it in all situations until my death and beyond. I have no problems with taking ones of fidelity to the Magisterium, Sacred Scripture and Tradition, since I know it is just another way of saying one will be faithful to God through His Church, and I am on board with all things the Church teaches and wait excitedly for any new teachings. Oaths to secular institutions are different though, and might have to be broken at any day, so I just personally avoid any, and anything that looks like it (pledges of allegiance to the flag, etc), or any jobs that require it. I have not thoroughly investigated if it is sinful yet though, so it is currently opinion. Maybe there is no teaching on it though. In the sense that maybe there is no moral law forbidding it strictly, since all acts are good or evil inherently

 

[Mythicalbio]

I remember reading that Syllabus, among other documents condemning the same idea. I came to the conclusion that one may uphold the constitution as it says this, while also knowing it is not ideal. As long as you hold that it isn’t ideal, or the way things ought to be, then it might be fine.

 

[1ke]

. I was genuinely interested to know what one could say to uphold that particular statement in the constitution in good conscience. I refer @1ke to this statement.

Nothing in Church teaching opposes the establishment clause.
.

If the US Constitution did not contain the establishment clause and had in fact established a state religion, it would not have been Catholicism.

 

[harshcshah]

No, Jesus meant that his audience listening to him must render unto God the things that are God’s.
Jesus knew full well that pagan Caesar wasn’t going to do doodly and that Caesar wasn’t there listening and planning to follow him. He wasn’t saying “only pay the tax if Caesar properly worships God”.

I did not mean to suggest anything like that; what I was saying is that Caesar is subject to God’s laws and therefore must follow them (i.e. the natural law). We have our duties to Caesar (the state) and our duties cannot impede upon our duties to God.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I am just wary of oath taking since I consider if I can genuinely commit to it in all situations until my death and beyond.

Well, that would seem to be your own personal issue.

I haven’t had any problem upholding the Constitution and being a Catholic at the same time during the decades of my career. I would not take a job that would be likely to put me at odds with Church teaching, and there are millions of legal jobs that don’t raise such issues, at least with respect to the Constitution or laws. Furthermore, whether or not I take an oath, I would consider it my duty as a US Citizen albeit by birth (so I didn’'t have to swear any oath) to uphold the Constitution anyway as a duty of good citizenship.

It’s not been uncommon for me to find two Catholic lawyers opposing each other in a particular constitutionally-related case like death penalty case (this was before the latest Catechism revision re death penalty). But in any event, they’re still upholding the Constitution by providing zealous representation for each side.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I did not mean to suggest anything like that; what I was saying is that Caesar is subject to God’s laws and therefore must follow them (i.e. the natural law). We have our duties to Caesar (the state) and our duties cannot impede upon our duties to God.

And in the case of paying a civil tax, there was no conflict.
In a reasonably just and basically Christian society, 99 percent of the time there is no conflict.
The 1 percent conflict usually involves stuff like conscientious objectors.

 

[harshcshah]

Considering some of the things said in this thread I think that one could take the oath in good conscience whilst recognising that the constitution is a product of fallible humanity and that ones oath to it represents an oath affirming the legitimacy of the imperfect but good systems of government instituted in the United States. Furthermore, ones could say that any prior oaths one may have made to a state to which one previously had allegiance would be abrogated for they would be contingent upon one belonging to that state.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Considering some of the things said in this thread I think that one could take the oath in good conscience whilst recognising that the constitution is a product of fallible humanity and that ones oath to it represents an oath affirming the legitimacy of the imperfect but good systems of government instituted in the United States.

Yeah, I would agree with this.
My dad used to say that the USA wasn’t perfect, but in his opinion, it was better than anyplace else, governance-wise.
It also does do a pretty good job of protecting our freedom to worship, despite all the sky-is-falling stuff to the contrary.