Church and State

[Montie_Claunch]

Just the other night I was bored out of my mind and I found one of my aunts protestant magazines and it was talking about how the U.S. was drifting towards a merger between church and state (never said which church but, the Goverment is doing it) and how it was linked somehow to Revelation 13 and would bring about the end of the world. I thought that it was just plain stupid but, I did get me to thinking. What does the Catholic Church say about what the relationship should be between the Church and the State? Thanks and God bless.

 

[JOE_OBERR]

The Church clearly favors a separation of church & state, but not completely. The popes have written, or approved, documents that say true religion, meaning the catholic religion in the least, should be shown “favor” by the government.

It is also a teaching of Jesus, or part of the gospel, that the laws of the state must conform to the laws of God, or the natural law. Otherwise they are unjust, eventually become tyrannical and cause death and misery as they are based on man’s whims & fancies.

Pure separation of church & state has its modern origins in the Enlightenment which of course was a rejection of the teachings of Jesus as found in his Church. Death & misery resulted, naturally.

Separation of church & state in the US popped up in 1947 in a US Supreme Court decision (Everson vs State of NJ) where 5 Masons on the Court misinterpreted (deliberately) the 1st (?) amendment which said that Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion nor prohibiting its free exercise.

If it was so obvious why did it take the SCourt 170 or so years to discover it? Plus, the amendment restricted ONLY Congress, not governors or city mayors. Books have been written illustrating the tax dollars spent by the Congress from their first sessions to the connection betwee religion and government, its leaders etc. over the years.

Also, 5 or 6 of the original 13 states had state established religions. Those governors knew they were not violating the Constitution. Yet the SCourt justices 170 years later pretend to know better. Clearly they had an agenda beyond strictly interpreting the Constitution.

Joe

 

[a_cermak]

Separation of church & state in the US popped up in 1947 in a US Supreme Court decision (Everson vs State of NJ) where 5 Masons on the Court misinterpreted (deliberately) the 1st (?) amendment which said that Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion nor prohibiting its free exercise.

If it was so obvious why did it take the SCourt 170 or so years to discover it? Plus, the amendment restricted ONLY Congress, not governors or city mayors. Books have been written illustrating the tax dollars spent by the Congress from their first sessions to the connection betwee religion and government, its leaders etc. over the years.

Also, 5 or 6 of the original 13 states had state established religions. Those governors knew they were not violating the Constitution. Yet the SCourt justices 170 years later pretend to know better. Clearly they had an agenda beyond strictly interpreting the Constitution.

Joe

14th Amendment made the rules for the Federal Gov’t applicable to the State governments. That’s why VA etc. could have state religions at the formation of the nation, but not (technically) after the Civil War.

I’m convinced that part of why stuff that was clearly unconstitutional lasted for so long is because 1. People didn’t know their rights or 2. People were afraid of asserting their rights for fear of being social pariahs.

I prefer a separation of Church and State especially not giving any faith or sect a primary position in our society. Not that I’m against all religious displays on public property. As long as there are multiple religious displays (e.g. creche, menorah, crescent, statue of Vishnu, cross, statue of Buddha, statue of Torah… pick any 3 of different combination of faiths–and no fair always picking the same 3) I don’t have a problem.

 

[JOE_OBERR]

…I prefer a separation of Church and State especially not giving any faith or sect a primary position in our society. Not that I’m against all religious displays on public property. As long as there are multiple religious displays (e.g. creche, menorah, crescent, statue of Vishnu, cross, statue of Buddha, statue of Torah… pick any 3 of different combination of faiths–and no fair always picking the same 3) I don’t have a problem.

Why would you not want to give the Christian faith a primary position in our society since the Prostestant religion & to a lesser extant, Catholic religion, provided the foundation of our country & society? The first Europeans to settle in the Americas were Catholic Spaniards (Columbus) followed by others who were either Protestant or Catholic.

The history of the country is imbued with mostly Christian principles and the Presidents and Congress consistently reflected this in their actions, though less so now since we have become pagan in our actions.

Since our culture is predominantly Christian that is the religion our leaders should show favor to. 86% of the country claim to be followers of Christ. I’ve seen this number more than once. Why should we have Buddhist or Hindu displays? What percent of the population are they? What part did they play in the founding/development of our country?

Why should we allow Muslim displays? They are bent, according to their own religion, to destroy or enslave us as we are a people of the “book”, the bible. Of course that is their worldwide goal - conversion of all to Islam; the alternatives are death or enslavement, which they still practice today in North Africa & the Mideast.

One cannot even were a cross in Saudi Arabia, much less practice the Christian faith without being persecuted. The Saudis don’t allow freedom of religion, why should we honor such a religion, especially one with violence at its core, with displays here?

Joe

 

[Genesis315]

The Catholic Church teaches separation of Church and state (meaning the State doesn’t control the Church, like in China, and clerics don’t run the temporal government). That being said, she condemns separation of Truth and State or God and state.

The Church and the State operate in two distinct spheres, but they both receive authority from the same source (God) and are both responsible to the same source (God) . In a perfect world they would be distinct, yet they would work together in harmony.

 

[kleary]

The Church clearly favors a separation of church & state, but not completely. The popes have written, or approved, documents that say true religion, meaning the catholic religion in the least, should be shown “favor” by the government.

Actually I find through my reading that the separation of Church and State to be condemned by the Church. The imagery presented in the Book of Revelation is also in agreement with the “traditional” Catholic teaching - that Jesus Christ is to rule the nations with an iron rod- therefore the Church is to rule the nations- all nations, all governments must be obedient to her-

America I believe is a NEW experiment of governenment to where the Church is seperate from the state. I myself can see the horrors of this new experiment…I can never send my children to the public schools- I see homosexuals granted “rights”, I see false gods and false religions being allowed to publicly worship.

 

[a_cermak]

Why would you not want to give the Christian faith a primary position in our society since the Prostestant religion & to a lesser extant, Catholic religion, provided the foundation of our country & society? The first Europeans to settle in the Americas were Catholic Spaniards (Columbus) followed by others who were either Protestant or Catholic.

That was then and this is now. The cultural make-up of our nation has changed over time. People whose families came over to escape Catholic or Protestant persecution are now atheists or Jains or still Catholic or Protestant. The Immigration Act of 1967 brought in a lot of new immigrants who are from every stripe of religion. This is a nation that is constantly in a state of flux religion-wise. Think of all the Great Awakenings in the Protestant tradition that it has gone through. The US founded an awful lot of denominations like the Mormons, the Christian Scientists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the non-denomination model.

For me, it’s a matter of fairness. Either honor all Faiths publicly or honor none.

 

[Katholish]

Proposition condemned in the Syllabus of Errors (Blessed Pius IX)

1. The Church ought to be separated from the .State, and the State from the Church. – Allocution “Acerbissimum,” Sept. 27, 1852.

It is true that there must be logical distinction, and that the temporal authority should not interfere with the administration of eccelsiastical matters. Thus, the Church should be separate from the State. However, the State should not be separate from the Church. Prudence, however, makes certain allowances in situations with populations with mixed religious loyalties. In other words, it would not be prudent to establish that Catholic Faith as the official religion of the United States anytime in the forseeable future.

 

[Seeks_God]

The only church I can think of that would be uniting with the U.S. government, would be the Church of Liberalism

SG

 

[a_cermak]

The only national Church that I can think of that would include just about all the people I know would be the Consumer’s Church. It could meet at the local mall.

 

[rr1213]

Freedom of conscience is one of the most fundamental freedoms belonging to mankind. This freedom includes the right to worship God as one pleases without undue restrictions by the state. In the United States, freedom of conscience is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The First Amendment contains two prohibitions on governmental power which, in way, have always existed in tension with each other. Congress shall make no law: (1) establishing religion or (2) prohibiting the free exercise of religion. With the passage of the 14th Amendment after the Civil War, the First Amendment was made applicable to the states was well as the federal government. Over the years, as in many areas of constitutional law, the understanding of the First Amendment has changed. The prohibition against establishment of religion has evolved into a prohibition against excessive entanglement of the state in religious affairs and, vice versa, entanglement of religion in state affairs.

I find it astonishing to see Catholic Americans contend that there should be a Catholic theocracy in the USA. People, the protections of the First Amendment are there to protect Catholics as well as Protestants, as well as Jews, as well as Moslems and people of other faiths. Our Constitution was one of the first governing systems not to require a religious test to hold office. In other words, a position in the federal government cannot be denied to a Catholic because he is a Catholic, even though the Country was founded by Protestants and has (an ever shrinking) Protestant majority. Nonetheless, the Catholic Church has taught against freedom of religion, going so far as to say that non-Catholics do not have the right to worship openly in Catholic majority countries. See Syllabus of Errors, Nos. 77-80 below.

papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

Again, this is an astonishing position to take by a Church that preaches that God has given all of us the freedom to accept or deny Him.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Just the other night I was bored out of my mind and I found one of my aunts protestant magazines and it was talking about how the U.S. was drifting towards a merger between church and state (never said which church but, the Goverment is doing it) and how it was linked somehow to Revelation 13 and would bring about the end of the world. I thought that it was just plain stupid but, I did get me to thinking. What does the Catholic Church say about what the relationship should be between the Church and the State? Thanks and God bless.

“Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s” . . .