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pablope
Guest
These books ( I had read them a wile back) may offer some information:
The Rite by Matt Baglio:
stgemmagalgani.com/2009/05/exorcisms-intercession-of-st-gemma.html
An Exorcist Tells His Story by Fr. Gabriel Amorth
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The Rite by Matt Baglio:
stgemmagalgani.com/2009/05/exorcisms-intercession-of-st-gemma.html
An Exorcist Tells His Story by Fr. Gabriel Amorth
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pablope
Guest
There are Saints, in the Catholic Church, who have been documented to have been tormented by the devil…but for a purpose.
Two that I know are St. Padre Pio, and St. Gemma Galgani.
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edwest2
Guest
History does not recognize acts of God or the devil. They are usually classified as unusual events. Like it or not, history, as written, and I’ve read a lot of it, consists of accounts of events and any mention of religious content is neutral in most cases. So, if you’re writing history, God and the devil don’t count. In fact, religion and the supernatural are usually discounted. So, if theology doesn’t count then your questions about God and the devil are moot. They don’t matter. What god were the Bolsheviks dying for?Thank you everybody for the responses. I didn’t know whether you would want me to ask you my questions privately or in the forum so for this round i will do my best to direct questions at the person who responded. If you would like me to email you directly please let me know. I would like to say before I go further all I am asking for is an open and honest debate and q+a session. I am not out to offend anyone question ones beliefs or how they do things again thank you for all the help you have given and may give
David: One of the questions I have is you talk about the sacrament and the part of which are the words used… my question is this how is a prayer and different than say an incantation?
Both could be asking for a blessing (good or bad which i know is a curse) health again good or bad etc so besides the good vs evil theory what is the difference?
Jerry I’d like to see your answer to the question I asked David above. If you would
Ed the first part of what you wrote sounded like a lecture from mt professor lol We just moved out of the beginning of alchemy, My question to you is besides the god is good satan is evil reason what difference is there between a christian and for lack of a better term a satinist? Both believe their god is a live and both will ask them for help. Both make take time to manifest or happen so why is one not cool so to speak if in essence they are both the same thing?
Trevor my question to you is close to the same as I asked David. Is a prayer essentially the same as incantation? Both are asking either a “middle man” or in some cases right to the “boss” to bless curse intervene do something…i’d also like to add this part while as you say and I am paraphrasing an occultist is asking for selfish reasons couldnt the same be argued for a believer. For example if a believer prays for you and asks for your crops to bountiful isn’t that selfish of him to just ask for you because he is your friend or you asked him to?
Todd my question to you is this in 2117 it mentions charms and i think i can assume talismans or objects as well… what is the difference between that and a crusader putting the cross on his shield an armor and getting it blessed there for maybe having him believe that his shield being blessed and having the cross will protect him and if that shield stops a stray arrow its really on then
Wt: my question you is this isn’t heaven to an occultist damnation and hell so they would be getting what they want so they wouldn’t care the price
epostle: to answer you question I don’t know if any of them are. i haven’t taken a religion class. I’m working on becoming a teacher and depending on the level i teach i am going to have to take the stand that i cannot say on is better than the other.
I don’t know if correlation is the right word what i am trying to understand is the relationship between the two and what is the differences. I have discussed this with my professor and this is why I looked at this… if somebody says a prayer asking for some sort of divine intervention for them selves how is that any different than an incantation said by an occultist or a witch etc all they are asking for is divine intervention
Thank you to all for this and once i write the paper I will be more than happy to share it with all … again I am not looking to say who is right or wrong just trying to understand I am a history major not a theological one
But your questions clearly involve an old question: God has the power to act in reality, the devil has power to act in reality. So they’re the same. I can access both, so what’s the difference? One is all good and one is all evil.
Ed
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Satan is a fallen angel. Saints and angels are spiritual beings. They cannot interact with our world any more than we (as physical beings) can interact with theirs. To do so (in either direction) would be a miracle, and miracles are reserved to God alone. No Saint can do a miracle (of his own accord), and no angel can do a miracle, and no demon can do a miracle.
No, not exactly. Satan is bound by his angelic (spiritual) nature. He cannot exceed the limits of his nature without God’s consent. The Saints cannot do that either (even Our Lady cannot do that).
Satan can act to undermine his boss within the capacity of his nature. For example, he could deliberately attach an outdated cover sheet to his TPS report.
I have always believed that I am quite capable of sin, even if the devil took a day off. I have opened threads on this topic (such as this one), and nobody has refuted this idea.
I think that people who say “the devil made me do it” are deluding themselves and not accepting responsibility for their own freewill choices. I can accuse myself of many sins, but I do not accuse the devil as a principal of any of them.
Yes. God did not create demons as-is. They chose their fate.
OK, I’m having trouble parsing that question.
I THINK you are asking why God sometimes allows an intermediary (satan) to tempt/curse us, instead of doing it himself.
God allows MUCH MORE than that!!! The devil has NOTHING on me!!! I can tempt/curse you RIGHT NOW, and I don’t need God’s consent. I can kill you, I can kill your family, I can salt your crops, and I can burn your house. And I don’t need God’s permission. God will not stop me. The devil, on the other hand, DOES need God’s permission, and he can do NOTHING without God’s consent.
So I think you have FAR more reason to worry about what I will do to you than the devil. And, for the record, I would not do any of those things. But I could.
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eddie_too
Guest
nothing that the RCC does or approves provides its members with powers over spirits.
I may be incorrect, but I believe that is the primary intention of those engaging in the occult, to manipulate spirits.
be very precise in you definition of magic and that should help direct your research and help you distinguish between the practices of the RCC and the magic and control of the occult preached by non-catholics.
if magic is the manipulation of spirits, it simply does not occur under the auspices of the RC magisterium.
whether or not spirits can be manipulated outside of the RCC, I have no idea. I do know however that satan has great power in this world and the Prince of Lies may allow his power to be used by humans for the purpose of luring into or ensnaring those humans in his kingdom.
I may be incorrect, but I believe that is the primary intention of those engaging in the occult, to manipulate spirits.
be very precise in you definition of magic and that should help direct your research and help you distinguish between the practices of the RCC and the magic and control of the occult preached by non-catholics.
if magic is the manipulation of spirits, it simply does not occur under the auspices of the RC magisterium.
whether or not spirits can be manipulated outside of the RCC, I have no idea. I do know however that satan has great power in this world and the Prince of Lies may allow his power to be used by humans for the purpose of luring into or ensnaring those humans in his kingdom.
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Frankenfurter
Guest
You are willing to take a class on Alchemy, Witchcraft and the Occult in Europe. Are you also willing to take a class on Catholic theology?
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Trevor_Dewey
Guest
I don’t speak for the Church, but I’m going to suggest that God’s divine plan for each of us probably has something to do with using our God-given talents to spread God’s message and increase joy in the world. Which sounds rather generic but does constitute some kind of plan for each of us, as our talents differ.
The Blessed Virgin, Saints and Angels are perfectly capable of interacting with you or I but won’t without permission. They all have free will but remain obedient to God.
I can’t agree with this unless you are using “permission” in a very, very, very unusual sense of “God won’t usually directly intervene to stop Satan’s exercise of his freewill.” Satan has free will, just as you do, and is perfectly capable of tempting people without first asking God if he can do so, c.f. Genesis, Garden of Eden. God permitting Satan’s trials of Job are a different thing entirely and were permitted (I will guess) in part so that the Book of Job could be written and teach us all something about suffering. In that sense Job’s suffering were a prefigurement (in a small way) of Christ’s sufferings in the New Testament.
Since I don’t think you are using permission in that sense, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this and on all these points. Best
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DavidFilmer
Guest
I am using “permission” in the usual sense of the word. Perhaps we must agree to disagree, but will you ALSO disagree with the Catechism (emphasis mine):
I am free to do ANY evil. Satan can only influence us with permission by God. You have a WHOLE LOT more to fear from ME than from satan.
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Vico
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church
2634 Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners.112 He is "able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them."113 The Holy Spirit "himself intercedes for us . . . and intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."114
112 Cf. Rom 8:34; 1 Jn 2:1; 1 Tim 2:5-8.
113 Heb 7:25.
114 Rom 8:26-27.
The angels in the life of the Church
334 In the meantime, the whole life of the Church benefits from the mysterious and powerful help of angels.201
335 In her liturgy, the Church joins with the angels to adore the thrice-holy God. She invokes their assistance (in the funeral liturgy’s In Paradisum deducant te angeli. . .“May the angels lead you into Paradise. . .”]). Moreover, in the “Cherubic Hymn” of the Byzantine Liturgy, she celebrates the memory of certain angels more particularly (St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, and the guardian angels).
336 From its beginning until death, human life is surrounded by their watchful care and intercession.202 "Beside each believer stands an angel as protector and shepherd leading him to life."203 Already here on earth the Christian life shares by faith in the blessed company of angels and men united in God.
201 Cf. Acts 5:18-20; 8:26-29; 10:3-8; 12:6-11; 27:23-25.
202 Cf. Mt 18:10; Lk 16:22; Ps 34:7; 91:10-13; Job 33:23-24; Zech 1:12; Tob 12:12.
203 St. Basil, Adv. Eunomium III, I: PG 29,656B.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Hey, Vico,
I wrote a Perl program to adapt the HTML of the Catechism from the Vatican’s website to BBCode (as used by CAF’s V-Bulletin forum). in order to make it easier for me to faithfully cite the Catechism. It is a work in progress, but I like shining it upon actual examples cited here.
Here is my program’s rendition of your CCC citation. The main difference here is that you cited the CCC non-chronologically. My program sorts citations. I struggled with this design decision. I took the easy approach (WAAY easier) of sorting. But maybe this is not ideal?
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Trevor_Dewey
Guest
Nothing I stated is in disagreement with the Catechism you cited. I have nothing to fear from you or any man. Satan, on the other hand, can lead a man into temptation and put his immortal soul at risk.
Satan has free will to act. You have free will to act. Free will is a gift to the Angels (and thus to Satan) and Adam (and thus to you) from God at the beginning of Time as part of God’s plan for the universe (which is what the CCC meant by the reference to Divine Providence). Satan’s ability to act in the world and to tempt Man has nothing to with permission as the word is normally understood. Satan does not talk to God every time he is about to tempt someone and ask permission to do so (as in the Book of Job), and if you think that’s the case I suggest you have a long discussion with your brother.
I will repeat a statement I’ve made before: God did not create a kindergarten universe.
Yours in Christ
Trevor
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DavidFilmer
Guest
So you are somehow immune to temptation from people?
But ONLY with God’s explicit permission. Satan can’t do diddly-squat to you otherwise. Whereas I can.
He has free WILL but not the ABILITY to act in the physical world (because he is not part of the physical world). He can do NOTHING unless it is permitted and facilitated by God. Neither can any Saint.
So you’re saying that God gave the angels (and demons) carte blanche to act in the physical world from the dawn of creation? That’s a really BIG idea (and, as the saying goes, big ideas require big proof).
because, I suppose, you have some OTHER evidence to present? I present the Book of Job, and you present… what, exactly?
I might do that, but (like him) I must respect the unwritten rules that govern this Forum. My brother participated here for many years under his own name (EricFilmer) without identifying himself as a Catholic priest. He later chose to “out” himself, and was accredited by Catholic Answers as an Apologist. He thus abandoned his former userid and does not participate here under his own name.
I must respect those same boundaries. If I have a conversation with him, it would be inappropriate for me to post “as him” (as if by proxy) in this Forum.
And I have no idea what that means.
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Mintaka
Guest
Well, I don’t think you could ever say that God “facilitates” Satan or temptation.
Basically, God permits the fallen angels to exist and to do evil. He also protects humans from them in certain ways, especially by way of guardian angels and by way of the Sacraments.
We don’t know the exact rules or mechanics of how this works, because obviously God allows some very saintly people to be exposed to unusual amounts of demonic temptation, and even physical persecution. On the other hand, these people are frequently able to ignore and overcome the weird nasty stuff being thrown at them; so obviously God either isn’t letting demons use all their spiritual oomph, or God has given these saintly people a a level of spiritual oomph that isn’t any less than demons have. Either way, you gotta think that those demons lead a very frustrated existence.
On the other hand, it seems that some very unsaintly people, and some very normal people, also get exposed to exceptional levels of spiritual warfare, oppression, temptation, and the like. Also, doing evil or being unprotected by Sacraments (particularly Baptism) may expose you more to possession or other bad things. But again, obviously not everyone unbaptized or even pagan is walking around spitting pea soup, and plenty of evil people seem to be evil without any demonic help; so it’s not clear what the mechanics are.
What we do know is that minor exorcisms are part of the Church’s Sacramental and liturgical tradition, particularly at Baptism. So presumably it’s a good and needful thing to do.
Anyway, we should not live in fear of demons, although we should be aware of them as a danger and a pain in the butt. If we rely on the Cross and aren’t ashamed to ask for help from God and our fellow Christians, we should do okay. If we rely on our own strength, it won’t work too well. So in the words of Han Solo, “Don’t get cocky, kid.”
Basically, God permits the fallen angels to exist and to do evil. He also protects humans from them in certain ways, especially by way of guardian angels and by way of the Sacraments.
We don’t know the exact rules or mechanics of how this works, because obviously God allows some very saintly people to be exposed to unusual amounts of demonic temptation, and even physical persecution. On the other hand, these people are frequently able to ignore and overcome the weird nasty stuff being thrown at them; so obviously God either isn’t letting demons use all their spiritual oomph, or God has given these saintly people a a level of spiritual oomph that isn’t any less than demons have. Either way, you gotta think that those demons lead a very frustrated existence.
On the other hand, it seems that some very unsaintly people, and some very normal people, also get exposed to exceptional levels of spiritual warfare, oppression, temptation, and the like. Also, doing evil or being unprotected by Sacraments (particularly Baptism) may expose you more to possession or other bad things. But again, obviously not everyone unbaptized or even pagan is walking around spitting pea soup, and plenty of evil people seem to be evil without any demonic help; so it’s not clear what the mechanics are.
What we do know is that minor exorcisms are part of the Church’s Sacramental and liturgical tradition, particularly at Baptism. So presumably it’s a good and needful thing to do.
Anyway, we should not live in fear of demons, although we should be aware of them as a danger and a pain in the butt. If we rely on the Cross and aren’t ashamed to ask for help from God and our fellow Christians, we should do okay. If we rely on our own strength, it won’t work too well. So in the words of Han Solo, “Don’t get cocky, kid.”
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DavidFilmer
Guest
In the case of satan (or the Saints or angels), permission requires facilitation, because spiritual beings cannot interact with the physical world in any physical manner whatsoever unless God specifically performs a miracle. God must perform a miracle for each and every physical interaction between any spiritual and physical being.
Even if God granted carte blanche to demons to do whatever they wanted, they would still need God to “cash the cheque” each and every time they wanted to do something in the physical world. God cannot (and I mean, literally, cannot) grant this ability to creatures. God can do anything that is possible (such as dragons and unicorns), but nothing that is impossible (such as square circles), and granting this ability to created beings is impossible (because these created beings would have to be God, and God cannot create God). God alone can have a “foot in both worlds.”
Satan can do NOTHING to you or I without divine consent, which requires divine facilitation (otherwise, it would be like me telling you you have permission to travel faster than light, but not giving you any way to do so). Satan, of himself, has absolutely no power in the physical world.
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Nixbits
Guest
So, when a Catholic priest performs an exorcism, he is attempting to undo the miracle that God performed in allowing a demon/devil/evil spirit to possess a human? That seems to be a very curious state of affairs.
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Trevor_Dewey
Guest
I have no idea where you got this idea that you’re sticking with. Satan absolutely has power in the physical world:
“And the Devil took him up into a very high mountain and he showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them, and said to him: ‘All this will I give thee if falling down thou wilt adore me.’” Matthew iiii:8-9.
It’s not much of a temptation for our Lord if Satan couldn’t actually deliver on that promise. Per the Catholic Encyclopedia entry, Satan directs evil in this world and is the “head of all the wicked” (citing St. Gregory the Great).
I’m not interested in arguing the point with you, I accept that I can’t change your mind, I’m merely posting this so others don’t fall into what I’m pretty sure is heresy (see, for example, Mr. Nixbits excellent point above on exorcisms and the cited entry).
I must add, though, I am thankful for your contribution to this thread. You have forced me to think about the nature of Satan, which I probably wouldn’t have done otherwise. And in reading up in the Catholic Encyclopedia on the question of why Satan, an Angel, would sin, knowing the fullness of God’s power (as compared to Adam and Eve who did not) and in thinking on Mr. Nixbits’ point, I see that usually the question is posed as if one supposed that Satan sinned “to be like God”. Per the entry in the Encyclopedia, as an Angel, Satan was well aware that he could never be like God.
However, the thought has occurred to me, that perhaps Satan sinned not because he wanted to be like God, but perhaps he wanted to be more like Man. That is to say, a physical being capable of experiencing the “sins of the flesh” that are denied purely spiritual beings. This might explain why demons possess people.
I am sure this is not an original idea so if anyone happens to know a Church Father or Doctor who discusses it, please post or send me a pm, I’d like to read what someone with more knowledge on the subject has to say about it.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
A person cannot become possessed without some amount of complicancy. Most theologians do not believe that it is possible for a person in a state of Grace to become possessed.
So, in some way, the victim has allowed this evil into his life. It is not the will of God for this to happen, and the Church says it’s hard to understand why God permits it. But make no mistake - God does permit it.
But people open themselves up to evil all the time, and God permits it, and the Church is always there to restore Grace, and the Church has several ways to accomplish this mission, including exorcism, which is perhaps the most drastic measure.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
OK, so Jesus tells us that
But, suddenly, somehow, Satan got really honest in his contract negotiations. He would/could REALLY do what he “promised.” If Jesus would worship him FIRST. Of course, Satan would NEVER corrupt Jesus and accept his worship, and then leave him with NOTHING, because Satan suddenly got really honest in his contract negotiation. He got more honest than mobsters (who often make promises they don’t ever intend to keep). Because Satan is better than mobsters.
Satan did not realize he was dealing with God (or else he would have known his efforts would be utterly futile). He thought he was dealing with some mere (but great) prophet, like John the Baptist. The idea of the Incarnation never entered into his mind (until it was too late). He LIED. That’s what he does. He NEVER had the power to make good on his promises. He’s a LIAR. He can promise the sun and the moon and the stars if you will just worship him, but after you have done so he has no power to deliver (but he doesn’t have to - you have been fooled - he got what he wanted and you got NOTHING).
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JerryZ
Guest
Perhaps we have a case of both and in this case.
I agree with Filmer that Satan does not have the power to deliver what he is promising to Jesus on the high mountain, however I can also see, Trevor’s point, that he definitively has some power to carry out his attempt to deceive Jesus.
If we read the lives of the Saints we see that his power most often consist of, inflicting pain in them by physically attacking them or by tormenting them with mental attacks (visions and such).
In other words we do not need to utterly fear him because Jesus has won over him, however we cannot afford to sub estimate the enemy, lest we lower our guard and fall in one of his myriad traps.
…
I agree with Filmer that Satan does not have the power to deliver what he is promising to Jesus on the high mountain, however I can also see, Trevor’s point, that he definitively has some power to carry out his attempt to deceive Jesus.
If we read the lives of the Saints we see that his power most often consist of, inflicting pain in them by physically attacking them or by tormenting them with mental attacks (visions and such).
In other words we do not need to utterly fear him because Jesus has won over him, however we cannot afford to sub estimate the enemy, lest we lower our guard and fall in one of his myriad traps.
…
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