Church doesn't kneel after the Sanctus!

[mosher]

Is that a typo or is the GIRM IGRM in Latin (General Instruction of the Roman Missal)?

And in my experience in the US when the Great Amen is sung, as oppossed to spoken, people in many parishes begin rising somewhere in the middle of the Amen, not after the Amen: "they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen ". I speculate it’s due to the those leading the music raising their arms to indicate the people should respond, but the gesture is interpreted there as “get up”. No one stands up during the Prayer of the Faithful when the same gestures is used to indicate it’s the people’s turn to respond.

P.S. Belated blessed Feast Day of St. Albert the Great!

You are correct on both counts. I’m really batting 1000 on this one. I prefer to follow the abbreviation as it is in the Latin: IGMR. I know that it can be confusing to some but it offers a teaching moment.

Perhaps a reason why you see people stand early is a result of what you have stated. However, I seem to recall that in some places prior to the issuing of the current General Instruction the people we instructed to stand before they responded with the Amen. I can see how that practice makes sense - but that is not what the Rubrics have ever indicated.

Thank you for the blessing! It was a Solemnity for me since he is the titular patron of my Priory.

 

[Alethiaphile]

I’ve seen the standing during the consecration thing too. Some churches in my area don’t even have kneelers. I asked a priest one time why he didn’t want people to kneel during the consecration, and he told me it’s because he believes we are an “Easter People”, meaning that we’re supposed to focus on Christ’s resurrection and not on his sacrifice on the cross. He said kneeling was beneath our dignity as Christians. So as you see, there’s a lot of theology behind this kind of thing, goofy though that theology might be.

Actually, there is a huge precedent for this “goofy” theology. The Council of Nicaea in 325 (you know, the first ecumenical council, the one that defined that Christ was truly God) specifically forbad kneeling on Sundays and Feast Days as being inconsistent with commemoration of the Resurrection. The Eastern churches still observe this canon.

 

[mosher]

Actually, there is a huge precedent for this “goofy” theology. The Council of Nicaea in 325 (you know, the first ecumenical council, the one that defined that Christ was truly God) specifically forbad kneeling on Sundays and Feast Days as being inconsistent with commemoration of the Resurrection. The Eastern churches still observe this canon.

Yes, that is true. However, in practice this canon was never followed by the vast majority for the Particular Western Churches (as most canons from Nicaea were never followed: such as the non-transfering of Bishops) [note: It is specifically the “pastoral” or disciplinary canons that were not followed as opposed to the doctrinal canons which were indeed followed assiduously]. The closest that we know of this canon being followed (because rubrics were never formally written for the faithful until recently) is the current practice for the Deacon at Mass which is that he is to kneel from the Epiclesis to the conclusion of the Institution Narrative at the Mysterium. This is also seen in the Choir Rubrics of Religious Orders [sic] prior to the recent Conciliar Reforms. So while there is precedence in the Universal Church as a whole for not kneeling after the Sanctus this is not the case for the Latin (Western) Church.

Also, a more correct statement would be that most Eastern Churches still observe this canon. It is not completely accurate to imply that all the Eastern Churches observe that canon.

 

[corsair]

Don’t have this problem in the TLM

 

[mosher]

Don’t have this problem in the TLM

Actually that is not the case. Perhaps for the faithful it is simple especially at a Low Mass but if one is attending in choir then it is much more complicated - and oddly enough are pretty much the same rubrics as is found in the Ordinary Form. In fact, in the Dominican Rite the period of time that one kneels is shorter than in the Ordinary form of the Roman Rite.

 

[EasterJoy]

But what US Bishops actually retain the Latin norm of having the congregation kneel for the consecration!? No, they just have them stand the whole time, probably without even telling them to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects!

It particularly irks me that no one seems to teach the choirs about this. Even in our very traditional parish when I used to actually be in the choir, and we were in a choir loft near the organ, they told us we couldn’t go kneel down because the stampede would be too loud, but nobody taught us or modelled a profound bow or genuflection when the priest genuflected.

Particularly in churches where the choir is situated toward the front, in clear view of the altar, it would be so great if the choir all made a profound bow at the correct time. If that were the norm, people would clearly know what to do at the standing-room-only Masses.

BTW, what about organists who sit through the entire Mass? Is there an exemption for musicians that I’m not aware of? (I mean, other than the unwritten rule that rules aren’t meant for musicians? )

 

[NPC]

It particularly irks me that no one seems to teach the choirs about this. Even in our very traditional parish when I used to actually be in the choir, and we were in a choir loft near the organ, they told us we couldn’t go kneel down because the stampede would be too loud, but nobody taught us or modelled a profound bow or genuflection when the priest genuflected.

Particularly in churches where the choir is situated toward the front, in clear view of the altar, it would be so great if the choir all made a profound bow at the correct time. If that were the norm, people would clearly know what to do at the standing-room-only Masses.

BTW, what about organists who sit through the entire Mass? Is there an exemption for musicians that I’m not aware of? (I mean, other than the unwritten rule that rules aren’t meant for musicians? )

There seems to be something about the choir in the choir gallery. I think perhaps there’s a subconscious feeling/notion generally that they can be as spiritually distant from what’s happening on the altar, as they are physically distant from it. Only two or three from the choir I’m in kneel at the appropriate times. It certainly makes a difference when the choir has to sing near the sanctuary, though: a few years ago our organ and gallery were out of use because the organ was being rebuilt. For several months we sang at the sanctuary-end of the nave - we turned the first few pews facing into the centre of the nave so as we wouldn’t be singing with our backs to the congregation. We had to be so co-ordinated in all our actions, from processing into our places, standing, kneeling, and a procession out at the end. The choir was very much on show & there was no question but that everyone must adopt the postures appointed by the bishop. Once we got back to the gallery, it was back to “normal”. I think when the choir is behind the people and not on show, there’s often a feeling that one can do as one pleases because no one can see!

For myself as an organist as well as a chorister, I do kneel at the appropriate times. Unfortunately, though, sometimes there is such a volume of music to be played in quick succession that it is just not possible for some organists to kneel. It’s not just a matter of play, kneel, play…for example, one may have to organise music (especially if tricky page-turns are required) or set stops for the next part of the Mass. I do agree, though, that if possible, we organists should adopt the same postures as the congregation!

 

[NPC]

Particularly in churches where the choir is situated toward the front, in clear view of the altar, it would be so great if the choir all made a profound bow at the correct time. If that were the norm, people would clearly know what to do at the standing-room-only Masses.

I forgot to say, “standing-room only Masses”. I wish. Don’t see them to often myself, unfortunately

 

[Jea9]

The only appropriate postures during the consecration are sitting or kneeling. I think that you should perform the appropriate posture. Maybe others will see you kneel and then feel brave enough to kneel as well. Often times I’ve heard that they do this for “unity”, maybe the pastor will talk to you about this, and you will have a good moment to bring up the relevant GIRM references!

 

[mosher]

The only appropriate postures during the consecration are sitting or kneeling. I think that you should perform the appropriate posture. Maybe others will see you kneel and then feel brave enough to kneel as well. Often times I’ve heard that they do this for “unity”, maybe the pastor will talk to you about this, and you will have a good moment to bring up the relevant GIRM references!

Actually it is kneeling and if prevented for a just reason then standing and performing a profound bow. The practice of sitting during the consecration is actually an abuse (exempting the infirm of course).

 

[pnewton]

For the OP -

I believe you might have the option of going either way. An argument could be made that the GIRM’s statement on uniformity of posture would give you the option of not being the only one kneeling. However, one would also be right to kneel before Christ while he is on the altar, and before, in keeping with the GIRM. Since this is an abuse, one has the right to address the problem with the bishop if the priests rejection of the Church’s norm is met with such snazzy phrases like “Easter people”.

To our brethren friend,

I think it is fine to jump in and ask why we do what we do. We make a big deal about uniformity in this because body language is still language. We confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, but also with our posture. While we all are answerable individually for what is in our heart, this particular time of worship is a corporate act. Like the elders around the throne our the four cherubim, we come before God as the body of Christ. For Catholics, there can never be a “Me and Jesus got our own thing going” theology. More to the point, we do not see this as biblical. That would have to go to the Apologetics Forum though if you wanted to discuss it.

 

[peary]

Hi, I’ve been looking for an answer to this question for a while, and wanted to get your opinions on it.

At my church, no one kneels after the sanctus (“Holy, holy, holy”). From what I’ve read, this seems to be a liturgical abuse, and that the congregation should be kneeling. Other parishes in our area do. Imho, even if there’s some loophole that says we don’t absolutely have to, we should be anyway, because of Transubstantiation and the real presence).

Any suggestions for how to bring this up respectfully but firmly with my parish priest?

Also, what are the rules for lay lectors reading on an “unusual” Sunday (like Palm/Passion Sunday, Holy Week, Christmas, etc.)?
Last year, I was asked to read parts of the Passion along with another (male) lector and the priest. Was this “against the rules”? (Recently, I’ve found that no one but the priest is supposed to read the words of Christ, and both I and the other lay lector read the words of Christ last year. I didn’t know there was a problem with it at the time, because the lector coordinator made it sound fine and normal…)

I’m not trying to nitpick, I’m just trying to be a good, “law-abiding” Catholic (I mean heck, if I’m Catholic, I ought to be serious about it, right?)

Thanks!!!

Actually, it depends on the directive of the diocesan bishop. Some dioceses are directed by their bishops to kneel after the Sanctus while others direct the congregations to stand throughout the entire Consecration. I would check with the diocesan office before I approach the priest on this matter.

You are correct. The priest is the one who should be speaking the words of Christ during the reading of the Passion. The congregation usually speaks the words of the people, the Jews, in the Passion. You can always bow out gracefully if they insist on doing it differently.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

My in-laws’ church doesn’t kneel at the same times I was taught to kneel. I just go ahead and kneel anyway! At first I was annoyed (in part because, as a new convert, the variation in routine was confusing and embarrassing for me), but I “came to peace” with it by reminding myself it’s not my place to judge the congregation or the pastor for doing something I feel is wrong. I can just do what my priest taught me and trust that if God really has a preference, he’ll take care of it one way or the other.

 

[CDNowak]

Actually, it depends on the directive of the diocesan bishop. Some dioceses are directed by their bishops to kneel after the Sanctus while others direct the congregations to stand throughout the entire Consecration. I would check with the diocesan office before I approach the priest on this matter.

You are correct. The priest is the one who should be speaking the words of Christ during the reading of the Passion. The congregation usually speaks the words of the people, the Jews, in the Passion. You can always bow out gracefully if they insist on doing it differently.

It is not up to the bishop. The norm is kneeling for the actual consecration. The local conference of bishops has the authority (or rather had, they cannot change it at whim)to extend the period in which we kneel (as in the US), but not to do away with what little there was to begin with.

 

[EasterJoy]

I forgot to say, “standing-room only Masses”. I wish. Don’t see them to often myself, unfortunately

Hmmm. Well, you could look at it that your regular Sunday attendance is high enough that your parish had the place built big enough to accomodate the crush on Christmas and Easter. Unless your problem is that those present seem like so many lonely marbles in a bathtub on a normal Sunday, that’s a good thing!

No matter how big the church building is, though, there will come along a funeral big enough to fill it to overflowing. It’s good to know how standing-room only ought to be handled.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling_at_the_consecration.htm

The law on the posture of the people is as follows:

1. Universal Law. The General Instruction on the Roman Missal #43 establishes as the universal norm of the Roman Rite the practice of kneeling for the Consecration. This is understood to mean from the Epiclesis (the prayer calling for the sending down of the Holy Spirit) to the Mysterium Fidei (The Mystery of Faith).
2. American Particular Law. The U.S. Bishops adapted the universal norm with Roman approval, retaining the practice of kneeling from after the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) to the Doxology (Through Him, with Him, in Him), in other words for the entire Eucharistic Prayer. Thus, while in Italy and many other places they stand until the Consecration, at which time they kneel down for the Consecration, in the US we have knelt for the Canon in the past and continue to do so.

The U.S. version of the General Instruction n. 43 therefore reads,

43 … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

 

[Monica37]

Anyone know what the norm is for Germany? I had attended an EF in the States, so I knew that and it is the same in Germay, but recently I found a very reverent, beautiful latin OF that is very more convenient for me than the EF. I have to re learn the OF, but this part of when to kneel has me stumped. They seem to not kneel during the Sanctus but they do for the Consecration.

 

[peary]

Personally, I always felt that kneeling is a sign of humbleness, especially during Mass when called upon to do so.

I also have felt that standing, if during the Consecration, can be interpreted as a sign of defiance.

Just a thought.