Church tax (Kirchensteuer) - incentive for apostasy?

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HomeschoolDad

HomeschoolDad

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In some countries (Germany, Switzerland, et al), citizens pay a “church tax” which is then forwarded to the religion that they specify. In some of those countries, if you formally declare apostasy, it is my understanding that you do not have to pay the tax.

I wonder what percentage of Catholics would go through the steps to declare apostasy if they lived in a country that assesses such a tax. If you are a nominally a Catholic (or any other religion), it is one thing to affiliate yourself with a given religion, but another thing entirely if doing so would actually cost you a given sum of money every year. Thoughts?
 
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HomeschoolDad said:
In some countries (Germany, Switzerland, et al), citizens pay a “church tax” which is then forwarded to the religion that they specify. In some of those countries, if you formally declare apostasy, it is my understanding that you do not have to pay the tax.

I wonder what percentage of Catholics would go through the steps to declare apostasy if they lived in a country that assesses such a tax. If you are a nominally a Catholic (or any other religion), it is one thing to affiliate yourself with a given religion, but another thing entirely if doing so would actually cost you a given sum of money every year. Thoughts?
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For a start Kirchensteur in Germany applies only to those people who declare themselves to be Christians or Jews. It does not apply to other religions.
If you are a Catholic why would you not want to pay the tax. It goes to the Church, not the government.
 
thistle said:
If you are a Catholic why would you not want to pay the tax. It goes to the Church, not the government.
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Because one might be a nominal Catholic, e.g., perhaps want baptism for your children, might want to get married in the Church, go to Mass on Christmas and Easter, and not much else. Formally leaving the Church would relieve you of the tax obligation, and for that, a nominal Catholic might say “well, baptism and a church wedding are nice to have, we’ve always baptized children in our family, our parents were married in the Church, but it’s not worth having to pay a tax for”.

Please note that I do not in any way endorse this way of thinking, I’m just stating that it exists for some poor, misguided people.

In a manner of speaking, this way of thinking existed in my own family here in the United States (who were not Catholic). Certain family members said, in so many words, that the “nice”, more sophisticated, downtown “society” churches in our small town (Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, etc.), required a larger donation than they felt they could pay. But on the other hand, the simpler, more “rednecky” churches (Baptist, Pentecostal, Holiness, Church of God, etc.), while not requiring that level of financial support, were uncouth “holy rollers” where they made you do things like giving up even moderate consumption of alcohol, wearing makeup, women having to wear long hair and long dresses/sleeves, and so on. They knew nothing of Catholicism and these were pretty much the only two choices — either “society” churches or “holy roller” churches. So they just didn’t go to any church at all.

(Keep in mind too that this was 50 years ago. There are more worship options now.)
 
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My cousin lives in Germany. He tells me that even if you declare yourself an atheist, you still get taxed by the government for social programs. The reality is Germany is a high-tax country, it is not like you will get richer by not supporting the Church with your taxes.
 
Dan_Defender said:
My cousin lives in Germany. He tells me that even if you declare yourself an atheist, you still get taxed by the government for social programs. The reality is Germany is a high-tax country, it is not like you will get richer by not supporting the Church with your taxes.
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Oh, OK, thanks. I understood that if you professed no religion, you simply didn’t pay whatever percentage of the tax that constituted the Kirchensteuer. I wonder if there are any other countries, besides Germany, where you would indeed get a tax break for not being formally affiliated with a church?
 
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My dear friend, being a citizen of one these countries I can tell you that you CANNOT avoid paying the tax.
You can only CHOOSE who the portion destined for religion goes. If you decline to indicate who you want it to go to then the State decides what to do with the money.
Not paying a tax what a novel idea…🤣
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I wonder if there are any other countries, besides Germany, where you would indeed get a tax break for not being formally affiliated with a church?
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Denmark (where I live) have a mandatory Church Tax for the (Evangelical Lutheran) Church of Denmark, which is the the state church of Denmark. If you are a member of the Church (completely voluntary) you get taxed a 1% tax by the state.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
ecause one might be a nominal Catholic, e.g., perhaps want baptism for your children, might want to get married in the Church, go to Mass on Christmas and Easter, and not much else. Formally leaving the Church would relieve you of the tax obligation, and for that, a nominal Catholic might say “well, baptism and a church wedding are nice to have, we’ve always baptized children in our family, our parents were married in the Church, but it’s not worth having to pay a tax for”.
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I’d consider that a plus.

I also think it may help support the Church.
 
In Germany, if you are Catholic and do not pay the tax, you are de facto excommunicated. They don’t call it excommunication formally, but you face the same penalties as if you were excommunicated, including being denied the sacraments.
 
Weserthy said:
In Germany, if you are Catholic and do not pay the tax, you are de facto excommunicated. They don’t call it excommunication formally, but you face the same penalties as if you were excommunicated, including being denied the sacraments.
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Not suggesting anyone try to get away with this, but how would they know you didn’t pay the tax, if you went up to receive communion, or went to confession and didn’t mention it?
 
It’s a good question - I have no idea how/if they enforce this. Maybe someone from Germany on here would be able to answers that. I would assume it would be up to parish priests to keep track if they can, but I question how they would be able to do that for so many people on top of everything else they have to remember for their other duties.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
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Weserthy:
In Germany, if you are Catholic and do not pay the tax, you are de facto excommunicated. They don’t call it excommunication formally, but you face the same penalties as if you were excommunicated, including being denied the sacraments.
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Not suggesting anyone try to get away with this, but how would they know you didn’t pay the tax, if you went up to receive communion, or went to confession and didn’t mention it?
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Here’s the question… if you were a Catholic in Germany, why would you not want to pay it?

It’s not like they tax you less if you say you are an atheist. The govt just keeps the money that would have gone to the Church.

NOW - one can make the argument that the tax is a major reason why a lot of the German bishops are dissent. They know if they were to become orthodox, the German govt will end the tax. And if they end the tax, the Church will receive far less money they they are getting today.
 
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phil19034 said:
if you were a Catholic in Germany, why would you not want to pay it?
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Based on an earlier post, you have to pay a certain amount regardless, just if you identify as Catholic (or whatever), it gets earmarked to your church.

I guess then it would be more a question of tax evasion. I have a very difficult time believing anyone in Germany could get by with not paying taxes. They run a pretty tight ship over there on everything from education, quality control in industry, standards for various occupations (bakers, etc.), to such mundane things as ensuring home repair is done in a workmanlike fashion. As I said, pretty tight ship. I’ve been to Germany several times and have been very impressed each time.
phil19034 said:
NOW - one can make the argument that the tax is a major reason why a lot of the German bishops are dissent. They know if they were to become orthodox, the German govt will end the tax. And if they end the tax, the Church will receive far less money they they are getting today.
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I don’t think they would end the tax because of that. The tax is for the benefit of several religions, not just Catholic, and I can’t believe they would single out the Catholic Church because its bishops taught orthodox doctrine. Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church would be taken off the list of “tax-supported churches”, and if so, how would the government justify that?
 
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