Citations from the Deuterocanonicals

[luv_pis]

Hi!

I’m new in these forums, and this actually is my 1st post here (Yey! ^^). I’ve been itching to join in some of the threads here, we have a lively bunch of posters here! ^.^ I hope I can learn much, and contribute some, here. BTW, I’m a 26 yr old male Catholic from the Philippines. Nice ta meetcha, all of ya.

Now the reason for my post. I’m replying for a friend who is kinda debating with a Protestant via email on the origins of the Bible. Now, it may strike odd for other Catholics, but Protestants believe that the Roman Catholic Church (they call it the RCC for short ^^) added the Deuterocanonical Books (aka the Apocrypha) of the OT to our Bible in 1546 during the Council of Trent. Now I know this isn’t true. We’ve replied that (1) there are Councils since the 4th century (Rome, Hippo, Carthage III) that had promulgated the Deuterocannonicals as part of the OT Cannon, (2) Bibles since then (especially the Vulgate) that had the Deuterocanonicals alongside the Protocanonicals without any distinction between them (except for the last 3 books), despite of Jerome’s known misgivings with the Deuterocanonicals, and (3) the Church Fathers have been using the Deuterocanonicals along with the other books of the Bible in their readings since then with no distinction between the books.

Now, my problems. For the 3rd point what I could only find was the page in Catholic Answers catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp, which stated documents up to the 5th century only. I know this may be laziness on my part, but could you people please point to me important Church documents that went out after the 5th century and before the Council of Trent which used the Deuterocanonicals that could be found in the internet? I want to show the one we were replying to that up to the Council of Trent we treated the Deuterocanonicals as equal with the other books of the Bible.

Anyways, thanks for your time reading. God Bless.

Let Love Reign in You, Peace Will Result! ^^

 

[Tom]

Well, the fact that in these books we find the teachings of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, that are found nowhere else in Scripture would lead one to believe Jesus did indeed teach from these books and since He did they’re good enough for me. One look at Wisdom or Sirach will show the origins of the sermon on the mount and the Lord’s prayer, how about Tobit and the Lord’s teaching on marriage, the resurrection isn’t mentioned anywhere else (that I know of) other than these books. Tell them to read these books with an open heart, they can’t help but see the teachings of Jesus.

 

[bryang]

Parts of the Deuterocanonicals were part of the bible known as the Septuagent during the life of Christ. While Luther removed them from his parsing of the Bible they were part of what was quoted during the time of Our Lord.

The Septuagent was later printed in the mid 1500s so that may be what your friend is thinking of.

I know I have more info here but it is late and bed is calling or maybe I am way off base and mis-remembering.

Good luck and peace

 

[luv_pis]

@Tom: Oh…hmm, I didn’t know that. I guess that’s what I get for not reading the Bible much…which I AM trying to rectify for the past week ^^. Thanks! I’m going to read on Sirach and Wisdom after this, then I’ll try to add that argument the next time.

@bryang: Thanks…although I already know that, sorry. Well, what you said:

The Septuagent was later printed in the mid 1500s so that may be what your friend is thinking of.

That was not I was talking of. We were debating about the Council of Trent in 1546 and its implications on the Canon of Scripture. In the 4th session of the council of Trent, it was promulgated:

It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred books, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council.
They are the following:

Of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second.

…If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.

Now, we know that this proclamation was made because of the relegation by the Reformers of the Deuterocanonical books to be “uninspired by the Holy Spirit” and thus removal of them from the Old Testament Canon. But for the Protestants, they see this as us adding to the Old Testament canon, not them removing from it. We even simplified the argument to: “Did the RCC add to its version of the Bible in 1546.” Why? Actually it started with a webpage I was pointed to by my friend: carm.org/questions/canon.htm. I said I was quite offended by the claim there that

 In Protestant Christianity, the canon is the body of scripture comprised in the Bible consisting of the 39 books in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament.
 In [Roman Catholicism](http://www.carm.org/catholic.htm), additional books were added in 1546.

And it went on from there.

Anyways, pfft, sorry about this ^^

Let Love Reign in You, Peace Will Result! ^^

 

[Maccabees]

In Protestant Christianity, the canon is the body of scripture comprised in the Bible consisting of the 39 books in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament.
In Roman Catholicism, additional books were added in 1546.

Well you have to consider the source they also say that if we beleive Roman catholic doctrine we are not saved
“CARM’s position is simple. If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to scripture. Therefore, as a whole, Roman Catholics need to be evangelized.”
Of course they say we can be saved if we don’t beleive in catholic doctrine but somehow still identify ourselves as catholics, which really begs the point why call yourself catholic if your really evangelical?
Another point is that the point to Trent as finalizing our canon.
In a way that is true as we were reacting to protestansts and wanted to seal our postion infaliably however we just reiterated the ancient tradtion from Hippo and Carthatge the same councils where protestants point to when they try to find evidence the NT canon they use is valid in the early church. OF course they can’t point to any early council of any kind that reitterates thier OT canon they point ot the Palestenina canons hundreds of years after Christ. In reality their canon was finalized around the same time as Trent as the Reformers decided on the Palestenina canon used by the Jews who rejected Christ.
As evidenced by the Qumran scrools other Jews from the Essenses, the Alexandrian canon and the Ethopian canon different Jewish communites had differnt OT canon it was not set at the time of Christ.

 

[Todd_Easton]

The ecumenical Council of Florence, in Session 11—4 February 1442, listed the inspired books of the Bible and included the deuterocanonicals, (www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM). However, this Council was not binding, and in light of Luther’s demands, the Catholic Church examined the question of the Canon in the Council of Trent, which reaffirmed the Canon of the Council of Florence.
Council of Florence:

It professes that one and the same God is the author of the old and the new Testament — that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel — since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit. It accepts and venerates their books, whose titles are as follows.
Five books of Moses, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, Esdras, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Job, Psalms of David, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus [a.k.a. Sirach], Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, namely Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; two books of the Maccabees; the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen letters of Paul, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, to the Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two letters of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; Acts of the Apostles; Apocalypse of John. (emphasis added)

 

[CatholicMatthew]

Interesting info on the Deuterocanonicals. From a Catholic FAQ on a Christian Bulletin Board. I have not had time to verify all of these but if even half are true…wooohooo!!!

Under the Mercy,

Matthew

christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=558419&postcount=10

Jesus and the Gospel writers referenced the Deuterocanonicals in the following instances:

Matthew 6:12, 14-15—“Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your heavenly father forgive your transgressions.”
Sirach 28:2—“Forgive your neighbor’s injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven.”

Luke 1:17 (describing John the Baptist)—“He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers towards children and the disobediant to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord.”
Sirach 48:10—“You are destined, it is written, in time to come, to put an end to wrath before the day of the Lord, to turn back the hearts of fathers towards their sons, and to re-establish the tribes of Jacob.”

Luke 1:28, 1:42—“And coming to her, he said, ‘Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you!’…Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Judith 13:18—"Then Uzziah said to her: 'Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women of the earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the Creator of heaven and earth.

Luke 1:52—“He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones, but lifted up the lowly.”
Sirach 10:14—“The thrones of the arrogant God overturns, and establishes the lowly in their stead.”

Luke 12:19-20—“I shall say to myself, ‘Now as for you, you have so many good things stored up for many years, rest, eat, drink, be merry!’ But God said to him, ‘You fool, this night your life will be demanded of you; and the things you have prepared, to whom will they belong?’”
Sirach 11:19—“When he says: ‘I have found rest, now I will feast on my possessions,’ he does not know how long it will be till he dies and leaves them to others.”

Luke 18:22—“When Jesus heard this, he said to him, ‘There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.’”
Sirach 29:11—“Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold.”

John 3:12—“If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?”
Wisdom 9:16—“Scarce do we guess the things on earth, and what is within our grasp we find with difficulty; but when things are in heaven, who can search them out?”

John 5:18—“For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God.”
Wisdom 2:16—“He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.”

John 10:29—“My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.”
Wisdom 3:1—“But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them.”

 

[CatholicMatthew]

Part II from above

Paul and James allude to them as well:

Romans 2:11—“There is no partiality with God.”
Sirach 35:12—“For he is a God of justice, who knows no favorites.”

Romans 9:21—“Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose andanother fo an ignoble one?”
Wisdom 15:7—“For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: both the vessels that serve for clean purposes, and their opposites, all alike; as to what shall be the use of each vessel of eiother class, the worker in clay is the judge.”

Romans 11:24—“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor?”
Wisdom 9:13—“For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what the Lord intends?”

1 Thessalonians 2:16—"(The enemies of Christ persecute us), trying to prevent us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved, thus constantly filling up the measure of their sins. But the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them."
2 Maccabees 6:14—“Thus, in dealing with other nations, the Lord patiently waits until they reach the full measure of their sins before he punishes them; but with us he has decided to deal differently”

James 1:13—“No one experiencing temptation should say, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.”
Sirach 15:11-12—“Say not: ‘It was God’s doing that I fell away’; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: ‘It was he who set me astray’; for he has no need of wicked man.”

James 5:2-3—“Your wealth has rotted away, your clothes have become moth-eaten, your gold and silver hav corroded, and that corrosion will be a testimony against you; it will devour your flesh like a fire.”
Judith 16:17—'The Lord Almighty will requite them; in the day of judgement he will punish them: he will send fire and worms into their flesh, and they shall burn and suffer forever."

Now, of course, you may say that these don’t sound like exact quotes, and you’d be right; but there are thousands of allusions in the New Testament from the Old, both Deuterocanon and not, which are not exact quotes. Romans 11:34, for example, also has an allusion to Job 15:8, but ironically the allusion to Wisdom 9:13 is closer in actual wording to it than Job is. And, of course, if you want to get into loose allusions, we could expand the above list to ten times the size it is. Then there are also the cases of outright error in some New Testament quotes, such as Matthew 27:9, in which Matthew quotes “the prophet Jeremiah”, when the allusion is actually found nowhere in Jeremiah but rather in Zecheriah 11:12-13.

There is also the case of some Old Testament books not being quoted by Jesus in the New Testament: He didn’t quote from Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, or the Song of Solomon. And yet they are still considered to be canonical Scripture even though He did not reference them.