Cleansing Sacred Vessels

[Servulus]

There are times when too much wine is pour for the consecration, and our pastor has insisted that the EM’s consume the Precious Blood Before placing the Chalice on the Altar. He of course will purify them.

His insistence is contrary to GIRM 163 which states “After the distribution of communion, the priest himself immediately consumes at the altar any consecrated wine which happens to remain;”

We have 4 chalices and 2 masses on Sunday and he has told us that if he had to consume all the Precious Blood himself, he would become “drunk”. Remember, the alcohol level is still present even though its now the Precious Blood.

This concern seems to be addressed by Redemptionis Sacramentum Section 102, which states:
“The chalice should not be ministered to lay members of Christ’s faithful where there is such a large number of communicants that it is difficult to gauge the amount of wine for the Eucharist and there is a danger that ‘more than a reasonable quantity of the Blood of Christ remains to be consumed at the end of the celebration’… or where a notable part of the people continues to prefer not to approach the chalice for various reasons, so that the sign of unity would in some sense be negated.”
Possible solutions that address his concern and still incorporate reverence, prudence, and obedience might include:

• rethinking the amount of wine to be consecrated; or
• offering Communion under both Kinds at only one of the two Masses.

Hope that helps.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Exactly. But the part you didn’t mention is why it says that these Ministries may be assigned to lay Christians, and then describes the duties of the ministries, and then turns around and says it the church reserves the ministries only to men. Are women not lay Christians, too? This seems like blatent discrimination against women (this is not scripturally founded and no longer within the tradition of orders). The church would have some ‘splainin’ to do!

That’s a rather puerile knee-jerk. What if a document said a certain ministried may be assigned to lay Christians and then “turned around” and said these people must be at least 35 years old - are 22-year-olds not lay Christians, too? The inhumanity!!! The asininity!!! The hypocrisy!!!

Or what if a ministry may be assigned to lay Christians, but in a “total flip-flop” says only those with a requisite education can exercise it? Are the lesser-educated not lay Christians, too? When will it end?!?!

Ministeria quaedam says lay Christians may be admitted to ministries, then it specifies which lay Christians may be admitted. There is no turn-around there, actually just a continuation of the same trajectory. It didn’t say “all lay Christians…only men.” I smell a blinding agenda.

 

[agapewolf]

Difference between cleansing and purifying

Purification is for the ordained. This is to guard the blessed sacrament. Once the vessels have been purified, then EMHC’s or lay people can cleanse (sanitize) the vessels.

Not trying to split hairs, but this way, the priest can purify at the end of the communion time, then after Mass, he can greet folks.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Difference between cleansing and purifying

Purification is for the ordained. This is to guard the blessed sacrament. Once the vessels have been purified, then EMHC’s or lay people can cleanse (sanitize) the vessels.

Not trying to split hairs, but this way, the priest can purify at the end of the communion time, then after Mass, he can greet folks.

It’s a very real distinction, and a good reason to make sure you know what’s going on before assuming non-acolyte laypeople are doing something they’re not supposed to.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Someone mentioned Father getting drunk of Jesus.
Before the Holy See made the pronouncement about the chalices and Father being the only to purify, I often found myself the sole consumer of the Precious Blood after school masses. I can attest to the fact that one person consuming that much precious blood is not good for anyone.

 

[ChemicalBean]

That’s a rather puerile knee-jerk. What if a document said a certain ministried may be assigned to lay Christians and then “turned around” and said these people must be at least 35 years old - are 22-year-olds not lay Christians, too? The inhumanity!!! The asininity!!! The hypocrisy!!!

Or what if a ministry may be assigned to lay Christians, but in a “total flip-flop” says only those with a requisite education can exercise it? Are the lesser-educated not lay Christians, too? When will it end?!?!

Ministeria quaedam says lay Christians may be admitted to ministries, then it specifies which lay Christians may be admitted. There is no turn-around there, actually just a continuation of the same trajectory. It didn’t say “all lay Christians…only men.” I smell a blinding agenda.

Not really a knee-jerk, Hofer. Your examples of age and education restriction are something that clearly anybody could advance to, given enough years of life or study, and they are easily defensible as a reasonable standard preparation for ministry. It’s pretty obvious that a man cannot become a woman, nor a woman become a man. I don’t think it’s puerile at all to ask the Church to explain itself in a case where lay women and lay men are already serving the church in identical fashion (altar service), yet one sex (male) can receive the privilege and benefit of being instituted to that service for life, while the other sex (female) cannot.

Unlike Holy Orders, it cannot be argued that acolyte service is scriptural (“Jesus only chose men to be his successors”) or that it is a divine mystery (“Ontologically, only men can be indelibly marked to act in the person of Christ”). If one were to try to argue along those lines, I think an even stronger argument could be crafted for an acolyte being properly instituted only to women, since woman is the “helpmate” of man and helping out the priest at his side is exactly what acolytes do during Mass.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Not really a knee-jerk, Hofer. Your examples of age and education restriction are something that clearly anybody could advance to, given enough years of life or study, and they are easily defensible as a reasonable standard preparation for ministry. It’s pretty obvious that a man cannot become a woman, nor a woman become a man. I don’t think it’s puerile at all to ask the Church to explain itself in a case where lay women and lay men are already serving the church in identical fashion (altar service), yet one sex (male) can receive the privilege and benefit of being instituted to that service for life, while the other sex (female) cannot.

Unlike Holy Orders, it cannot be argued that acolyte service is scriptural (“Jesus only chose men to be his successors”) or that it is a divine mystery (“Ontologically, only men can be indelibly marked to act in the person of Christ”). If one were to try to argue along those lines, I think an even stronger argument could be crafted for an acolyte being properly instituted only to women, since woman is the “helpmate” of man and helping out the priest at his side is exactly what acolytes do during Mass.

The knee-jerk comes in reading an insinuation - that women are not just as equally lay Christians - into a text which clearly lacks it. If you want a reasoned explanation as to why women can’t be acolytes, you’re free to request it, but it’s unbecoming and self-defeating to impugn a discriminatory “turn-around” to a text that proceeds in standard logical flow and with no intent to even begin addressing the issue you’re dealing with.

 

[John_Lilburne]

Difference between cleansing and purifying

Purification is for the ordained. This is to guard the blessed sacrament. Once the vessels have been purified, then EMHC’s or lay people can cleanse (sanitize) the vessels.

Not trying to split hairs, but this way, the priest can purify at the end of the communion time, then after Mass, he can greet folks.

No. Instituted acolytes are not ordained. The term “instituted” is use for the ceremony in which they become instituted acolytes. They are lay people. They can do the purification of the vessels in Mass. Other lay people cannot.

From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“279. The sacred vessels are purified by the priest, the deacon, or an instituted acolyte after Communion or after Mass, insofar as possible at the credence table.”

There is no description of the other lay people sanitizing the vessels during Mass. So they should not do it then.

 

[agapewolf]

No. Instituted acolytes are not ordained. The term “instituted” is use for the ceremony in which they become instituted acolytes. They are lay people. They can do the purification of the vessels in Mass. Other lay people cannot.

From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“279. The sacred vessels are purified by the priest, the deacon, or an instituted acolyte after Communion or after Mass, insofar as possible at the credence table.”

There is no description of the other lay people sanitizing the vessels during Mass. So they should not do it then.

Apologies for the mistake about who is allowed to purify.

However, I still stand by the difference of purifying and cleansing (sanitizing). I was mentioning that they do not do it DURING Mass. The vessels are purified and put aside during the Mass, and then taken to be sanitized AFTER the Mass. Once the ordained/acolyte has purified the vessels, there is no danger for the blessed sacrament.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

**The original question for the thread subject is:

our local bishop (I do not wish to name him) had sent a letter to all of the pastors in the diocese telling them to not change anything until they receive further direction from the USCCB and the Holy See. Is this bishop correct in doing this?

Please do not hijack the thread with other issues and please do not respond to those who attempt to do so.

Thanks for your help in staying with the topic. It may be helpful for some to review Post #1 - choosing Your forum Wisely
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=17511**

 

[DIT]

True, but since only adult males can be instituted acolytes, not many parishes are into that. The vast majority of instituted acolytes are seminarians preparing for the priesthood.

So, technically, by law, you are right. Practically, it is a virtually hypothetical situation.

I would have to differ with you on your statement. I believe that there are more men in formation to become permanent deacons than there are men in formation to become priests - correct?

Any man in formation (either to the diaconate or priesthood) must be instituted an acolyte (as well as an lector) prior to being ordained a deacon (the first step in becoming a priest too).

This being the case, the vast majority of instituted acolytes are men who ultimately will become deacons (especially permanent deacons). http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[KathleenElsie]

Our priests have begun doing this (they are wonderful and holy priests) but as a side question, when should one end kneeling? I kneel until the celebrant priest is finished with everything, getting hosts back to the tabernacle and now doing the purification.

Is that correct?

We continue kneeling until the priest sits. As long as the host or the cleansing is taking place we remain on our knees.

 

[Belgique]

Just a note regarding cleansing of the sacred vessels. Cleansing the sacred vessels is entirely different from purifying them.

Purification is to be done by the priest or deacon right after Communion. Cleansing the vessels is done after Mass when the vessels are washed (disinfected) with soap and water and then rinsed, dried and put away. The necessity of washing them is obvious when you consider the number of people whose lips and hands have handled (contaminated?) the vessels. The linen towels used are washed as the Holy Wash. Only Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion and Sacristans are allowed to handle the vessels - and priests and deacons, of course. Thanks to all who are concerned about proper liturgical practices.