Clerical Fascism

[anon67074017]

I would like to know what all you Catholics think of clerical fascism. Clerical fascism is a strand of fascism that applies Catholic social teaching. Clerical fascists tend to be strict Traditionalist Catholics. Most of their movements probably would have rejected Vatican II if they had survived that long. Most of the clerical fascist movements died out when the Axis lost World War II. I personally think that clerical fascism is a corruption of Catholic social teaching. It places too much emphasis on being authoritarian and persecuting those who do not follow the Catholic Church. It does not place an emphasis on Christian love and mercy. I think the Church should officially condemn clerical fascism and its regimes. Notable clerical fascist regimes include the Nazi puppet regime in Croatia, the regime of Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria, the Nazi puppet government of Vichy France, and Francoist Spain.

 

[ahs]

Well, like ALL abuses of power, the Church should, and does, reject it. I don’t see a need for the Church to “officially condemn” it by name, since the Church condemns abuses altogether. I would think it would be akin to asking the Church to officially condemn “kicking your brother in the shin with steel toe boots”. Since the Church see hatred and violence against our brother as a sin, there’s no need to list out every single act in an official proclamation.

probably would have rejected Vatican II if they had survived that long. Most of the clerical fascist movements died out when the Axis lost World War II.

Then what would be the point of officially condemning it? It’s already dead.

 

[RPRPsych]

I would like to know what all you Catholics think of clerical fascism. Clerical fascism is a strand of fascism that applies Catholic social teaching. Clerical fascists tend to be strict Traditionalist Catholics. Most of their movements probably would have rejected Vatican II if they had survived that long. Most of the clerical fascist movements died out when the Axis lost World War II. I personally think that clerical fascism is a corruption of Catholic social teaching. It places too much emphasis on being authoritarian and persecuting those who do not follow the Catholic Church. It does not place an emphasis on Christian love and mercy. I think the Church should officially condemn clerical fascism and its regimes. Notable clerical fascist regimes include the Nazi puppet regime in Croatia, the regime of Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria, the Nazi puppet government of Vichy France, and Francoist Spain.

“Clerical fascism” puts the Church subordinate to the fascist / nationalist State and violates the principles of subsidiarity. It should be rejected.

However, Francoist Spain (and its much better relative, Salazar’s Portugal) were not clear examples of fascism per se. They were authoritarian states which incorporated Catholic values into their laws and policies. While the former did have serious issues (including probable cooperation with Nazism), the latter did not. An in-depth study of Salazar and his regime might be of interest to you. (As a patriotic Indian, I do have some issues with him over the whole Goa kerfuffle, but both sides were at fault there. )

 

[Manonfire63]

You combined Authoritarian and Fascist in a dishonest and deceptive way to make your point. Maybe you are just ignorant and hateful.

The Bible is The Patriarchy and Jesus Christ the head Patriach. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Jesus chastises and rebukes those he loves. (Revelations 3:19)
He disciplines you as a father disciplines his son. (Deuteronomy 8:5) Spare the Rod Spoil the child.

I was a NCO in the US Army. I am also a certified teacher. I am authoritarian. That has nothing to do with National Socialism and fascism. The two do not equal each other. Fascism and Communism are just two sides of the same coin. Stalin was just as bad as Hitler. Hitler removed crosses from Religous Schools and put his picture up like he was the anti-Christ. Stalin was head of an Atheistic Government that denied the Book of Daniel and was anti-religion.

You write like you are a person who is living in sin, and would like your sin and wrong doing coddled instead of being rebuked and chastised.

 

[RPRPsych]

You combined Authoritarian and Fascist in a dishonest and deceptive way to make your point. Maybe you are just ignorant and hateful.

The Bible is The Patriarchy and Jesus Christ the head Patriach. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Jesus chastises and rebukes those he loves. (Revelations 3:19)
He disciplines you as a father disciplines his son. (Deuteronomy 8:5) Spare the Rod Spoil the child.

Was a NCO in the US Army. I am also a certified teacher. I am authoritarian. That has nothing to do with National Socialism and fascism. The two do not equal each other.

You write like you are a person who is living in sin, and would like your sin and wrong doing coddled instead of being rebuked and chastised.

:tsktsk:

While the OP’s political views are muddled and simplistic, we are not called to pass judgment on him and make assumptions about his spiritual life.

 

[Manonfire63]

:tsktsk:

While the OP’s political views are muddled and simplistic, we are not called to pass judgment on him and make assumptions about his spiritual life.

Was I wrong? I am reading his fruit.

 

[RPRPsych]

Was I wrong? I am reading his fruit.

Well, from what I can see (I’ve followed our friend’s posts for a while) he seems to be a libertarian Catholic. His views of fascism / socialism / communism tend to be a little muddled, but I don’t think he’s trying to excuse any personal sins of his own. Of course, I could be wrong too, in which case I apologize.

 

[Manonfire63]

The following is not a Catholic Source, but the definition of Prophets and their Character is Biblical. kingwatch.co.nz/Prophet.htm

Many of the type of men the OP is refurring to may be God called prophets based on said article. The rest of the Church doesn’t listen to them? We are in a time of sin where many have fallen away, and people have been leaving the Church?

Some people would like to control God. They would like to make religion fit more with the passions of the times. BC people made idols and false gods. Today people make ideologies which is mostly were a man thought he could do better than God. Instead of working to understand God and his plan and grow in Faith and understanding they chose something else. God does not change. He is God you can’t control.

I am performing my function. It is hard to kick against the pricks.

 

[RPRPsych]

The following is not a Catholic Source, but the definition of Prophets and their Character is Biblical. kingwatch.co.nz/Prophet.htm

Many of the type of men the OP is refurring to may be God called prophets based on said article. The rest of the Church doesn’t listen to them? We are in a time of sin where many have fallen away, and people have been leaving the Church?

Some people would like to control God. They would like to make religion fit more with the passions of the times. BC people made idols and false gods. Today people make ideologies which is mostly were a man thought he could do better than God. Instead of working to understand God and his plan and grow in Faith and understanding they chose something else. God does not change. He is God you can’t control.

I am performing my function. It is hard to kick against the pricks.

That’s an…interesting site.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I would like to know what all you Catholics think of clerical fascism. Clerical fascism is a strand of fascism that applies Catholic social teaching. Clerical fascists tend to be strict Traditionalist Catholics. Most of their movements probably would have rejected Vatican II if they had survived that long. Most of the clerical fascist movements died out when the Axis lost World War II. I personally think that clerical fascism is a corruption of Catholic social teaching. It places too much emphasis on being authoritarian and persecuting those who do not follow the Catholic Church. It does not place an emphasis on Christian love and mercy. I think the Church should officially condemn clerical fascism and its regimes. Notable clerical fascist regimes include the Nazi puppet regime in Croatia, the regime of Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria, the Nazi puppet government of Vichy France, and Francoist Spain.

If I may say so, as a priest of Europe, you evoke aspects of our recent history that are extremely painful when you speak of clerical collaboration with the Axis in World War II. These are not remote events for some of us…they are even within our living memory.

We have just had the canonisation on Sunday of an extraordinary woman, an abbess whose life of holiness fills books…and who fought the Fascists by hiding Jews in her convent and at peril to her own life and the lives of all the Sisters. There were, in fact, many such heroes of that era just as there were many martyrs who were killed, and others who suffered, at the hands of these very evil regimes. Look at what Saint John XXIII in that epoch. We will yet see many more victims of that era raised to the altar.

I do not know if you have some near connection to Europe or are familiar with recent European histories but those ecclesiastics who acted in a way unworthy of their vocation by their political alliances and endorsements are, in fact, not held in any regard or esteem. They are rather a cause of sorrow and of regret and of shame…of which there is great consciousness. I am not sure why you would think there is not. Perhaps you are not aware of it but we who are here certainly are. There are names, actually, we do not speak or events we don’t evoke…not because we are hiding them or pretending that they did not exist but because, for at least those of a certain minimum age, they are unspeakably painful and anything but forgotten. The younger generations, since the past is more remote for them, act differently in this regard than those of us who are older, I should add.

The Popes have addressed this over the years, notably in speeches during their apostolic visits to places in Europe touched by this. Perhaps, an American audience hears less or none of this but that does not mean it is not said. Pope Saint John Paul II and Pope Benedict were touched by the War in very dramatic ways and that was very evident, at times in touching ways, when they spoke to us Europeans as fellow Europeans.

 

[ahs]

You combined Authoritarian and Fascist in a dishonest and deceptive way to make your point. Maybe you are just ignorant and hateful…

…You write like you are a person who is living in sin, and would like your sin and wrong doing coddled instead of being rebuked and chastised.

Or maybe you don’t understand what he meant and you jumped the gun and judged him unfairly.

I read his post several times over and I’m not seeing where he’s wanting some sin to be coddled. Are you sure you aren’t projecting your own issues onto him? There is nothing in his OP that suggests any of what you accused him of. :tsktsk:

 

[anon67074017]

Well, like ALL abuses of power, the Church should, and does, reject it. I don’t see a need for the Church to “officially condemn” it by name, since the Church condemns abuses altogether. I would think it would be akin to asking the Church to officially condemn “kicking your brother in the shin with steel toe boots”. Since the Church see hatred and violence against our brother as a sin, there’s no need to list out every single act in an official proclamation.

Then what would be the point of officially condemning it? It’s already dead.

The point of condemning it would be to officially distance the Church from such regimes.

You combined Authoritarian and Fascist in a dishonest and deceptive way to make your point. Maybe you are just ignorant and hateful.

The Bible is The Patriarchy and Jesus Christ the head Patriach. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Jesus chastises and rebukes those he loves. (Revelations 3:19)
He disciplines you as a father disciplines his son. (Deuteronomy 8:5) Spare the Rod Spoil the child.

I was a NCO in the US Army. I am also a certified teacher. I am authoritarian. That has nothing to do with National Socialism and fascism. The two do not equal each other. Fascism and Communism are just two sides of the same coin. Stalin was just as bad as Hitler. Hitler removed crosses from Religous Schools and put his picture up like he was the anti-Christ. Stalin was head of an Atheistic Government that denied the Book of Daniel and was anti-religion.

You write like you are a person who is living in sin, and would like your sin and wrong doing coddled instead of being rebuked and chastised.

You are quite mistaken. I am actually quite a devout conservative Catholic. I am just against authoritarianism. Your post is quite uncharitable.