"Clericalism"

[JReducation]

An odd sort of clericalism is the focus on women priests, as if the priesthood is all that important in the life of the Church. We need priests to give us the sacraments…to fuel us so that we can take on the heavy lifting of sanctifying the whole world.

Church issues…in other words is small ball.

It’s funny that you mention this. One of the horrible things that Catholics did between the time of Vatican I and today was to clericalize people.

First thing was that every eligible male who had a brain was more than just encouraged to enter the seminary. Nagged into it, was probably a better word. We ended up with thousands of priests and thousands of brothers by say 1960. The Christian Brothers became the world’s largest religious order of men. There were dioceses building diocesan seminaries to house 300 and so forth. By 2001, we had lost 40% of these men. They had left bitter. They were involved in child sexual abuse. They were involved in affairs with women. Some were involved with drugs or alcohol or both. Others just never fit in.

If you’re in a community or in a secular seminary, watching the door revolve like that, it can be very depressing.

Second thing that we did wrong was to clericalize the laity. We got into our heads that the laity, priests, deacons, brothers, sisters and nuns were all equal.

Well, yes and no. Equally children of God and the Church, yes. Absolutely. Equal as in the same with the same roles and the same rights, absolutely not. So when we clericalized all of these people whom God never called to either the clergy or the religious life, we decimated the ordained life and the consecrated life. There was no need to enter a seminary or a novitiate, because you could do the same thing without doing all that formation and without all that structure and discipline.

I have always believed that there is a place for lay volunteers in parishes and other ministries in the Church. But I have also believed that a layman and a religious doing the same work, do not do it the same. Or a layman and a priest doing the same work do not do it the same. The layman has a different charism. Think of it as a flavor.

Laymen, priests, brothers, sisters and nuns are all people of God in different flavors. They may all be popsicles, but not the same color. Clericalization has deceived us into believing that all the popsicles are the same.

Now, we have to undo a number of things.

1. Religious orders have to take control away from the priests and put it back into the hands of the community.
2. Dioceses and religious orders have got to filter who they admit and stop trying to fill every slot with a warm body. The Church is not going anywhere, because there is a shortage of priests, brothers and sisters. It’s not the first time that there has been a shortage. Look at Europe after Napoleon was done with it.
3. Parishes and other church institutions must admit that the popsicles have different flavors. No, Brother and Mrs. Smith do not bring the same flavor to Confirmation class, even though they both teach out of the same book. This one I know personally. I teach CCD on Weds. I love it. It’s the highlight of my week. I teach one of four grade 6 classes. This is kind of cute. When my kids enter and leave the building they walk in a straight line and are quiet. When they’re at their desks, they sit with their back the Franciscan regulation 3" from the back of the chair with your back perfectly parallel to the chair and both feet on the floor. Their notebooks are headed. Their responses to doctrine and scriptures must be in English Latin and Greek.

When the other grade six leave their classrooms or enter, they sound like a heard of cows. They don’t sit in their chairs, they recline at table as I call it. They don’t organize their notes, they draw in them. They don’t answer doctrinal and biblical questions, they give opinions.

Why? The other grade six teachers are very good and very knowledgeable. They try very hard. The reason is that the kids look at Brother and they have a sense of being in a different space. They look at the lay teacher and it feels like public school. They can do this in public school, why should this be different. It’s not the teachers who are bad. It’s the training of the kids that is horrific. The problem with the program is that the people who run it are not convinced that the presence of the brothers makes a difference. The people who run it truly believe that the lay teachers can do it exactly as the brothers do it. I don’t think so. That kind of mindset is another form of clericalism.

I think that you have to give the layperson tools that are appropriate for him or her, not the same that the brothers use. They work for the brothers, because they’re brothers. I can go in and say to a kid, you must sit with your back 3" from the seat, because that’s how we sit in Franciscan classrooms and Franciscan chapels. But I’m wearing a Franciscan habit. The lay teacher needs other tools to achieve the same degree of control and to be able to deliver the same program. The lay teacher knows the theology. It’s the delivery that’s different. But people don’t want to acknowledge this, because God forbid that we be different from each other.

I’m not sure if I’m making sense.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Yes, you are making plenty of sense, Br.

If what Francis means by clericalism is that we need to de-clericalize non-clerics and non-clerical orders, then by all means, that makes sense and I understand the impetus. I support that because I understand that, because I have read and heard about many credible cases of that. If that is what he means, great. I see that.

I was just thinking that Francis meant clericalism in the “classic” sense of, “Fr. is a demi-God, let us kiss his feet every time we see him!” I cannot support “getting rid” of that, because frankly I do not think that even exists right now in most places, so how could I ever help towards getting rid of it?

 

[otjm]

A priest is in Holy Orders and acts "In Persona Christi " at mass. He is a different being and is worthy of respect. He’s given up normal family life and commerce for the sake of saving souls.

So if people went OTT over deference I think it’s to be preferred to “Father Joe” trying to be one of the guys and people treating him as such. He isn’t. He can’t be. It’s embarassing for the people around him because they know he isn’t.

It’s good for one’s own humilty to seek his blessing and kneel for it, for example. Or kiss his hand. The bishops and priests who pull their hand away or are embarassed don’t understand that we are saluting He who he represents and the office, not the man. It’s false humility to want to stop this.

Lastly, priests, bishops and religious will be called to a harsher account than we laity by God. They’ve sworn into His service. They can’t then be casual about it. We laity shouldn’t be either.

If you want to talk about humility, I would posit it would do a few bishops some good to not kneel and kiss their ring. This came for ancient hsitory when they were princes of the Church.

Christ didn’t send the Apostles out to be princes. He sent them to be servants, and not a few bishops have forgotten that.

I have lived long enough in my state to have lived under 7 bishops. Out of the 6, 3 have had a high and mighty attitude; three have had the attitude of servanthood, and the most recent is still an unknown. I will not speak further of them as it would cross the rules of CA.

I have had numerous priests as pastors and assistant pastors. Many of them have been good and holy men; all of them have had their faults, and (sadly) several of them could have written the definition of clericalism.

It is difficult to give examples without appearing to pick at trivia. But the bottom line is whether or not the individual has a sense so service and servanthood, or a sense of entitlement and ultimate authority.

And when I speak of ultimate authority, I am not talking about the ability to define, for example, what is a sin and what is not. I am talking about the day to day functions of a parish - or for that matter, and archdiocese.

All servants are worthy of respect; interestingly, the general attitude is that the servant is the one who is ignored, and the one who obviously is not there to serve but to be served, is the one to whom much adulation is given.

You want someone who is not a clericalist? That is our Holy Father; read what kind of bishop he was, what he did, how he lived. I suspect he was very uncomfortable with anyone kissing his ring.

You want a clericalist? Check out that bishop who has his hand out before you have even started for the posture of such obesiance. You know - the one who is clearly the “prince of the Church”.

One of the things that struck me so profoundly was the sense of servanthood of both John Paul 2 and Benedict 16; they both were so humble in their own way. And Francis - wow. Just, wow.

 

[otjm]

Yes, you are making plenty of sense, Br.

If what Francis means by clericalism is that we need to de-clericalize non-clerics and non-clerical orders, then by all means, that makes sense and I understand the impetus. I support that because I understand that, because I have read and heard about many credible cases of that. If that is what he means, great. I see that.

I was just thinking that Francis meant clericalism in the “classic” sense of, “Fr. is a demi-God, let us kiss his feet every time we see him!” I cannot support “getting rid” of that, because frankly I do not think that even exists right now in most places, so how could I ever help towards getting rid of it?

It exists, no question. Absolutely no question. It is not everywhere; we have many priests who understand and seek servanthood. They understand the true meaning of humility. They read the Gospels, and they strive to follow Christ.

And there is no question whatsoever that there are members of the clergy who are jockeying for position. And members who think that somehow because they are ordained, they come not to serve but to lord it over. You may not have seen it; but that is hardly a reason to think it is not out there. People are human; ordination does not make them superhuman. It does not prevent them from sins of pride, of avarice, of greed, of seeking prestige.

They all put their pants on like the rest of us - one leg at a time. It is just that some of them seem to have forgotten that.

 

[CutlerB]

The thing I fear about all this talk abut “clericalism” today is that the laity goes beyond its limits. It almost sounds like the parish wants to boss the priest around, instead of the other extreme the priest bossing the parish around!

I believe the priest has authority, is worthy of respect and is, in a way, above the laity. That doesn’t mean he should treat them like they were his servants, but the lay people need to realise that the Church is not a democracy, but it’s the shepherds who lead the flock.

A good shepherd cares for his flock, he sees to his sheep’s needs and worries (if I may say so), but he shouldn’t forget he is not merely the lead sheep among many, but the one to whom the care of the flock has been entrusted.

 

[Edward_H]

It’s funny that you mention this. One of the horrible things that Catholics did between the time of Vatican I and today was to clericalize people.

First thing was that every eligible male who had a brain was more than just encouraged to enter the seminary. Nagged into it, was probably a better word. We ended up with thousands of priests and thousands of brothers by say 1960. The Christian Brothers became the world’s largest religious order of men. There were dioceses building diocesan seminaries to house 300 and so forth. By 2001, we had lost 40% of these men. They had left bitter. They were involved in child sexual abuse. They were involved in affairs with women. Some were involved with drugs or alcohol or both. Others just never fit in.

If you’re in a community or in a secular seminary, watching the door revolve like that, it can be very depressing.

Second thing that we did wrong was to clericalize the laity. We got into our heads that the laity, priests, deacons, brothers, sisters and nuns were all equal.

Now, we have to undo a number of things.

1. Religious orders have to take control away from the priests and put it back into the hands of the community.
2. Dioceses and religious orders have got to filter who they admit and stop trying to fill every slot with a warm body. The Church is not going anywhere, because there is a shortage of priests, brothers and sisters. It’s not the first time that there has been a shortage. Look at Europe after Napoleon was done with it.
3. Parishes and other church institutions must admit that the popsicles have different flavors. No, Brother and Mrs. Smith do not bring the same flavor to Confirmation class, even though they both teach out of the same book. This one I know personally. I teach CCD on Weds. I love it. It’s the highlight of my week. I teach one of four grade 6 classes. This is kind of cute. When my kids enter and leave the building they walk in a straight line and are quiet. When they’re at their desks, they sit with their back the Franciscan regulation 3" from the back of the chair with your back perfectly parallel to the chair and both feet on the floor. Their notebooks are headed. Their responses to doctrine and scriptures must be in English Latin and Greek.

When the other grade six leave their classrooms or enter, they sound like a heard of cows. They don’t sit in their chairs, they recline at table as I call it. They don’t organize their notes, they draw in them. They don’t answer doctrinal and biblical questions, they give opinions.

Why? The other grade six teachers are very good and very knowledgeable. They try very hard. The reason is that the kids look at Brother and they have a sense of being in a different space. They look at the lay teacher and it feels like public school. They can do this in public school, why should this be different. It’s not the teachers who are bad. It’s the training of the kids that is horrific. The problem with the program is that the people who run it are not convinced that the presence of the brothers makes a difference. The people who run it truly believe that the lay teachers can do it exactly as the brothers do it. I don’t think so. That kind of mindset is another form of clericalism.

I think that you have to give the layperson tools that are appropriate for him or her, not the same that the brothers use. They work for the brothers, because they’re brothers. I can go in and say to a kid, you must sit with your back 3" from the seat, because that’s how we sit in Franciscan classrooms and Franciscan chapels. But I’m wearing a Franciscan habit. The lay teacher needs other tools to achieve the same degree of control and to be able to deliver the same program. The lay teacher knows the theology. It’s the delivery that’s different. But people don’t want to acknowledge this, because God forbid that we be different from each other.

I’m not sure if I’m making sense.

Yes, Brother, you make perfect sense.

I hang out in a bitter place, the comment boards of the National Catholic Reporter. I offer up all the annoyance it is to engage these folks, nice folks, but bitter and sarcastic. They hurt the Church by all their utter negativity. But most of them also suffer from this strange form of clericalism.

“If we only had women priests, married priests, openly gay priests, if the sisters could be priests, if the hierarchy…, if the bishops only would…”

Nonsense. This sort of thinking is small ball and clerical.

If the lay truly understood the full meaning of Vatican II they’d be so exhausted after a day of trying to sanctify their workplace, their family, their neighborhood, the little league team they coach, their knitting bee, their bridge club, their auto club…they’d have no time to whine about women priests…and they’d struggle back to Mass to be refueled…but they’d be much more joyful and cheerful and giving.

 

[Cricket17]

Interesting thread. So here’s a question that’s been on my mind for awhile now. I live in a diocese that has, sadly lost its way. Priests behaving badly, other priests covering it up, mismanagement of finances, & on. Ugly stuff. Properly ordered, what should be the role of a faithful Catholic person in such a situation?

 

[Edward_H]

Interesting thread. So here’s a question that’s been on my mind for awhile now. I live in a diocese that has, sadly lost its way. Priests behaving badly, other priests covering it up, mismanagement of finances, & on. Ugly stuff. Properly ordered, what should be the role of a faithful Catholic person in such a situation?

That’s a good one.

Here are some ideas:

• Attend Mass even more, daily if possible.
• Increase frequency and sincerity of Confession. If the priest is too easy on you…ask for more help from him…tell him you’re desiring to struggle more generously.
• Not a single complaint or negative word about the diocese…minimize interior complaint about it.
• Encourage Confession with your friends.
• Adoration. or More Adoration
• Fast for the diocese on Fridays…don’t tell any one you’re doing it.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

That’s a good one.

Here are some ideas:

• Attend Mass even more, daily if possible.
• Increase frequency and sincerity of Confession. If the priest is too easy on you…ask for more help from him…tell him you’re desiring to struggle more generously.
• Not a single complaint or negative word about the diocese…minimize interior complaint about it.
• Encourage Confession with your friends.
• Adoration. or More Adoration
• Fast for the diocese on Fridays…don’t tell any one you’re doing it.

Excellent, excellent advice.

We often see both sides of clericalism at the same time and that can lead to serious problems - the priest is so special he must be an expert on everything (even finances, education, architecture, etc.) AND the laity are just as “special” as priests and they can do all sacramental stuff short of consecration - but they should also be allowed to tell the priest how to do that.

So we get priests who won’t take advice or counsel on things like parish finances, and laity who want to be on the liturgy committee but who aren’t willing to serve at the soup kitchen. I won’t get into any worse behavior on the part of priests or lay people.