Clown Masses revisited....

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ProVobis said:
The Catholic Church tried to vernacularize the Old Latin Mass through reverent translations, English chant, etc. during the 60’s. With very little success.
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The premise behind the short-lived (and ill-fated) “interim Missal” of 1965 wasn’t bad in and of itself, but the execution failed miserably. As I recall, it lasted about 5 minutes before the “Spirit of Vatican II” got hold of it. That meant out with ad orientem and in with versus populum. Out with the chant and in with the guitars. Out with the translations and in with the ICEL, etc.

I suspect the reason it failed so badly was it was done in a half-hearted way: a new order of Mass was on the way, and it was already known that it was to be (as I said earlier) a “shell liturgy” with plenty of “options” and a whole lot of room for variation. Why bother enforcing the “interim” one which was a slightly pruned version of the 1962 Missal (one might even say that it was an “organic development” of it) when something new was on the way? 🤷
 
malphono said:
The premise behind the short-lived (and ill-fated) “interim Missal” of 1965 wasn’t bad in and of itself, but the execution failed miserably. As I recall, it lasted about 5 minutes before the “Spirit of Vatican II” got hold of it. That meant out with ad orientem and in with versus populum. Out with the chant and in with the guitars. Out with the translations and in with the ICEL, etc.

I suspect the reason it failed so badly was it was done in a half-hearted way: a new order of Mass was on the way, and it was already known that it was to be (as I said earlier) a “shell liturgy” with plenty of “options” and a whole lot of room for variation. Why bother enforcing the “interim” one which was a slightly pruned version of the 1962 Missal (one might even say that it was an “organic development” of it) when something new was on the way? 🤷
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You’re right. However, in 1965 very few really knew a new order of Mass would be “on the way.” Most thought that the liturgy was now changeable and take out what you don’t like. And be creative as you like.

That said, I understand some vernaculars, like the Polish, had better luck with their transitional Masses. They certainly didn’t lose their faithful to the same degree as Americans or the French did.
 
\You don’t really want to follow the Anglican Church, do you? \

**As St. Gregory said to St. Augustine, “Take the GOOD things from different churches…”

Adaptation of the traditional music to other languages is done by Melkites, Ruthenians, Romanians, Greeks, and Russians. No reason why those who practice the Latin rite can’t profit by these examples.**
 
bpbasilphx said:
\You don’t really want to follow the Anglican Church, do you? \

**As St. Gregory said to St. Augustine, “Take the GOOD things from different churches…”

Adaptation of the traditional music to other languages is done by Melkites, Ruthenians, Romanians, Greeks, and Russians. No reason why those who practice the Latin rite can’t profit by these examples.**
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Indeed, Bishop. My cathedral choir has sung translations of Russian chant and Russian motets as well as The Beatitudes adopted from the Greeks. It sure beats sacro-pop.
 
brotherhrolf said:
And so once again, Bishop, you dissemble. **They ripped out a perfectly good 19th century pipe organ at my cathedral in 1962 in the interest of Vatican II. ** Bishop, with all due respect, I would appreciate if you didn’t drop these caltrop postings. You are not a Latin Catholic and from what you have posted, never have been. The 19th century organ was ripped out and replaced by the Hoover Deluxe. Providence, the name of our new pipe organ doesn’t make a bloomin’ bit of difference to you but means an awful lot to me. You were not a cathedral choir member and you did not experience the embarrassment when the Hoover Deluxe bellied up and died during a fellow cathedral chorister’s wedding.
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Since, as I recall, Vatican Council II only opened on Oct. 11, 1962, and closed in December of 1965, how was it that your pipe organ was “ripped out . . .in 1962 in the interest of Vatican II?”
 
ProVobis said:
You don’t really want to follow the Anglican Church, do you? 😉

The Catholic Church tried to vernacularize the Old Latin Mass through reverent translations, English chant, etc. during the 60’s. With very little success.
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Many of the English settings of the BCP are very beautiful, reverent, easy for the congregation to sing, and so I’m not sure why one wouldn’t want to follow* that* particular example. I know many Catholics who prefer to use Coverdale’s version of the psalms in many cases, and I can understand why. My parish choir tends to sing mostly Latin settings, but when the choir isn’t there, the congregation sings in English, and it is lovely in it’s own way. The congregation also always sings the psalms and other changeable parts of the Mass in plainchant.

Is there some reason other than that poorly received attempt in the 60s that you think Catholics couldn’t manage this? Not everywhere would be appropriate, but I have often wondered why I have not seen it done at all.
 
Mattapoisett64 said:
Since, as I recall, Vatican Council II only opened on Oct. 11, 1962, and closed in December of 1965, how was it that your pipe organ was “ripped out . . .in 1962 in the interest of Vatican II?”
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I cannot comment on the organ, but I can say this: there was a religious sister whom I one had the misfortune to know who took the name “Consilia” at her profession in 1959, immediately after the initial announcement that a Council was to be called. Yes, the name derives from “O.L. of Good Counsel” and of course it had been used before, but her ploy was to use a “Marian name” that had another meaning. And true to her intent, the day (in 1966) that her community gave the option to revert to given names, she was the first to do it and so the name “Sister Mary Consilia” in that congregation was history. On that very same day, the community also made habits optional. And of course she was the first to appear in public wearing a very ugly (not to mention very short) dress. Post-script: about 2 years later, a new Mother General was elected. No, it wasn’t the former Consilia, but it might as well have been. The options for both name and habit were withdrawn, meaning that both religious names and habits were forbidden. (Even “Mother General” was dropped in favor of “Sister Superior” :rolleyes:) And so it remains to this day. Of course the community now has only a handful of members, most over the age of 65. The greying of the progeny of the “spirit of Vatican II” I guess.

The point of that boring little story is that some people took the liberty to anticipate what would happen in the wake of the Council. The horror of it is that they were right, at least in the “short” (if 40+ years is “short”) term. 😦 Maybe that’s what happened to the organ. Maybe not.
 
\The congregation also always sings the psalms and other changeable parts of the Mass in plainchant.\

BRAVO! This is EXACTLY what I was suggesting.
 
A lot of the things suggested in the op, the types of things we one sees on EWTN such as incense, chantiong and ornate vestiture would be seen as false piety at the vast majority of OF Masses.
 
Jacafamala said:
A lot of the things suggested in the op, the types of things we one sees on EWTN such as incense, chantiong and ornate vestiture would be seen as false piety at the vast majority of OF Masses.
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I don’t see how the traditional useages of the Church can be considered “false piety,” but if people (on the left or right) wish to be offended, they will always find something at which to take offence.
 
bpbasilphx said:
I don’t see how the traditional useages of the Church can be considered “false piety,” but if people (on the left or right) wish to be offended, they will always find something at which to take offence.
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Well, I’m not the one who decides these things. I’m just calling it as I, unfortunately see it.
 
I saw “liturgical dancing” last week! It was horrible, as if I went back in time to the 70s.
 
PhanxicoXavier said:
I saw “liturgical dancing” last week! It was horrible, as if I went back in time to the 70s.
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A lady I know is involved in a liturgical dance group. She is very nice and works hard for the church, but wow do I have to keep my mouth shut. I find I can’t find words to describe it.
 
Bluegoat said:
A lady I know is involved in a liturgical dance group. She is very nice and works hard for the church, but wow do I have to keep my mouth shut. I find I can’t find words to describe it.
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Since various dicasteries of the Apostolic See have said that there is no place for so-called “liturgical dancing” in the Roman rite, why are ethey doing it?
 
bpbasilphx said:
Since various dicasteries of the Apostolic See have said that there is no place for so-called “liturgical dancing” in the Roman rite, why are they doing it?
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Ah, this lady is Anglican, and there is still liturgical dancing among the Anglicans. I can’t speak for the other incident described.

I think a High Mass is like a dance anyway - it involves proscribed movements of the body to emphasize and illustrate what is going on. So other “liturgical dance” is really unnecessary, and often works against what is already happening.

I think that the idea that these traditional adjuncts to the Mass have been stripped away, leaving people wanting something else, may really have some truth to it. Many people have NO idea what a high mass is or how it looks. Dance seems like a reasonable way to communicate and so they go for it with what ability they have. But since they don’t know the tradition, it offers them nothing to build on or relate to.
 
bpbasilphx said:
Since various dicasteries of the Apostolic See have said that there is no place for so-called “liturgical dancing” in the Roman rite, why are ethey doing it?
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Let me be a devil’s advocate for a second. Maybe because it’s scriptural?
 
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