Co-Worker Hearing Voices

[LordLove7_11_11]

If anyone’s ignoring anything, it is you. I’ve asked more than two times already how you would feel if someone from another religion attempted something in the same manner as you did (Buddhist reciting a mantra in your office, Wiccan putting herbs in your Bible).

First off, splashing holy water isn’t performing a ceremony. It’s not a big deal and is for the use of lay people in pretty much any circumstance. Unless you’re talking about walking up and squirting some in someone’s eye or ruining their belongings with it, or something else just as idiotic, it’s never discouraged.

Secondly, you ask would I want a Buddhist chanting in my office or a Wiccan putting herbs in my Bible. Follow me while I explain why this argument is irrelevant:

We as faithful Catholics know that our beliefs are THE full TRUTH-- So it’s not the same as someone practicing their religion, because we know that another faith is NOT THE full TRUTH. Let me ask you something… If you could choose right now to have someone do something that would offend you, but in actuality it would do nothing but good for you, even though you didn’t realize it, would you say no? Of course not, no sane person would, so therefore the person offending you by doing you the favor is actually treating you how they would like to be treated, thus loving thy neighbor. It’s simple logic.

Why would you argue against something that is encouraged by the Church? You’re more concerned with not breaking social norms than you are with doing what is righteous according to your faith. We as Catholics believe that the use of holy water cleanses areas of evil influence, we don’t have to ask permission where to use it. We do not live according to society and this will offend people, that’s Christianity 101. Pro Choice advocates don’t want us supporting pro life around them, but are we not going to because abortion is socially acceptable and they are offended by it?

You’re looking at this from a secular point of view. When you’re proclaiming the truth you can stand against the world. Understand that offending someone isn’t a sin, and you can bet you’re going to offend the majority of people when you live for God and not for this world. Detach yourself from this world, live according Scripture, the faith, not the current cultural norms.

(Just in case) Please don’t respond with something like, “So a Catholic shouldn’t obey the law or do anything that is a cultural norm?” Let’s be respectful and not underestimate one another in our ability to think rationally and use common sense.

 

[LordLove7_11_11]

Hi Everybody,

      I hope everybody is praying for this woman to be healed.   I  would like to ask a hypothetical question: What  could or would  one  do  if  Holy Water presented to this person who is suspected of being possessed  if a full blown manisfestation of  demons  occured?    What do you think would happen? What happens when an exorcists prays over a person silently  and they are possessed and  a reaction occurs?

BP

I guess any number of things ‘could’ happen. I have actually stood against a demon fully manifested in a girl I used to date (not while we were dating though). I know things like this are hard to believe, but I’ve had some unusual experiences in my life. The girl was under full demonic control and was being used to oppress others in the room. I did not show any fear, I tried to prevented her from harming the others in the room by breaking them out of her trances, spells, and so forth. The key to me being able to hold my own was the fact that I did not stop repeating in my head the entire time, “I believe in Jesus Christ… I believe in Jesus Christ.” I said this to myself with full faith and did not lose it.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

First off, splashing holy water isn’t performing a ceremony. It’s not a big deal and is for the use of lay people in pretty much any circumstance. Unless you’re talking about walking up and squirting some in someone’s eye or ruining their belongings with it, or something else just as idiotic, it’s never discouraged.

Let’s say you trespass on my property “for my own good” and I catch you at it. Do I not have a right to ask where you get your authority to do that? If you say it is because you know the TRUTH then I might ask you by what evidence you base your truth. When you say it’s by faith, I hit the buzzer and ask you to vacate my property.

By definition, what we KNOW to be true is not by evidence admissible in any court of science or law, but by FAITH. By definition, if we know something by worldly evidence, we no longer believe in faith because we’ve seen it with our eyes and understood with our minds.

We as faithful Catholics know that our beliefs are THE full TRUTH-- So it’s not the same as someone practicing their religion, because we know that another faith is NOT THE full TRUTH. Let me ask you something… If you could choose right now to have someone do something that would offend you, but in actuality it would do nothing but good for you, even though you didn’t realize it, would you say no? Of course not, no sane person would, so therefore the person offending you by doing you the favor is actually treating you how they would like to be treated, thus loving thy neighbor. It’s simple logic.

In a theocracy, then I would protect people’s rights based on morality. If a society with freedom of religion, then your religious belief doesn’t give you the right to trespass on my property.

Unless, of course, you want to give the guns to religious leaders. And which religions would you put in charge?

Why would you argue against something that is encouraged by the Church? You’re more concerned with not breaking social norms than you are with doing what is righteous according to your faith. We as Catholics believe that the use of holy water cleanses areas of evil influence, we don’t have to ask permission where to use it. We do not live according to society and this will offend people, that’s Christianity 101. Pro Choice advocates don’t want us supporting pro life around them, but are we not going to because abortion is socially acceptable and they are offended by it?

Love is not rude. Intruding on other’s boundaries is rude. Just ask Miss Manners.

Alan

 

[MtnDwellar]

Secondly, you ask would I want a Buddhist chanting in my office or a Wiccan putting herbs in my Bible. Follow me while I explain why this argument is irrelevant:

We as faithful Catholics know that our beliefs are THE full TRUTH-- So it’s not the same as someone practicing their religion, because we know that another faith is NOT THE full TRUTH. Let me ask you something… If you could choose right now to have someone do something that would offend you, but in actuality it would do nothing but good for you, even though you didn’t realize it, would you say no? Of course not, no sane person would, so therefore the person offending you by doing you the favor is actually treating you how they would like to be treated, thus loving thy neighbor. It’s simple logic.

I agree with LordLove on this. Although all religions may be equal under civil law, we know that they are not equal in the eyes of God. As Catholics we have the right to public practice of our faith.

I will not trespass upon someone’s private property. That is wrong. Walking over to another person’s desk in a common work area is not trespassing. I used Holy Water to bless my work space and that of coworkers on Friday. Instead of using a garden hose for the Holy Water which may have damaged electronics or paperwork, I used a small spray bottle.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I agree with LordLove on this. Although all religions may be equal under civil law, we know that they are not equal in the eyes of God. As Catholics we have the right to public practice of our faith.

Does our belief that we are right and anyone who disagrees with us is wrong, what gives us the right to practice publicly – or to invoke spontaneous rituals that involve physical entering into another person’s space? Do those who don’t “know” that they are wrong and we are right have the same right?

I will not trespass upon someone’s private property. That is wrong. Walking over to another person’s desk in a common work area is not trespassing. I used Holy Water to bless my work space and that of coworkers on Friday. Instead of using a garden hose for the Holy Water which may have damaged electronics or paperwork, I used a small spray bottle.

So are you saying that whether trespassing is a sin, is more of a quantitative question than a qualitative one. Or is putting water on their equipment also a matter of quantity – as if so, what is the dividing line? If it’s OK to use 10 grams of water but not 10 gallons, where, exactly, does it cross over from exercising our religion, to trespassing and/or vandalizing another’s desk? One ounce? Or can we define it as whatever quantity it would take so that it would be noticed? Or does it have to be enough so that it not only is noticed, but damages their papers of computer keyboard or gets their shirt noticeably wet when they put their arms down?

If you cannot tell me exactly how much water makes for the boundary line, then I wish to hear how you make a moral distinction between 10 grams and 10 gallons. Either we are going in and physically altering another person’s work space without their permission, or not? Is there a gray area, and if so what are its boundaries? Or it is a matter of whether it’s enough that we are caught doing it?

Would it be OK to hide a crucifix behind the coworkers desk? How about if we tape it to the coworker’s computer screen? How about if we call up a video of people saying the Rosary on their computer for them to encounter when they get back? How about if leave them a note that says, “don’t be deceived. Come home to the truth – see catholic.com?”

Those acts don’t hurt anything either, do they? Don’t we have a God given right to do all those things? We didn’t actually damage anything. We are just sharing some of the truth that gives us our superior morality, compared to anyone on the planet who disagrees.

How about if we addressed the coworker directly and not behind their back, and said, “I have some holy water that I believe can be helpful to our souls. I like to bless my desk with it from time to time. I’m about to do that right now. May I sprinkle yours, too? I don’t know your beliefs, but it’s only a few drops and I would love to share some with you?”

Alan

 

[MtnDwellar]

Does our belief that we are right and anyone who disagrees with us is wrong, what gives us the right to practice publicly – or to invoke spontaneous rituals that involve physical entering into another person’s space? Do those who don’t “know” that they are wrong and we are right have the same right?

So are you saying that whether trespassing is a sin, is more of a quantitative question than a qualitative one. Or is putting water on their equipment also a matter of quantity – as if so, what is the dividing line? If it’s OK to use 10 grams of water but not 10 gallons, where, exactly, does it cross over from exercising our religion, to trespassing and/or vandalizing another’s desk? One ounce? Or can we define it as whatever quantity it would take so that it would be noticed? Or does it have to be enough so that it not only is noticed, but damages their papers of computer keyboard or gets their shirt noticeably wet when they put their arms down?

If you cannot tell me exactly how much water makes for the boundary line, then I wish to hear how you make a moral distinction between 10 grams and 10 gallons. Either we are going in and physically altering another person’s work space without their permission, or not? Is there a gray area, and if so what are its boundaries? Or it is a matter of whether it’s enough that we are caught doing it?

Would it be OK to hide a crucifix behind the coworkers desk? How about if we tape it to the coworker’s computer screen? How about if we call up a video of people saying the Rosary on their computer for them to encounter when they get back? How about if leave them a note that says, “don’t be deceived. Come home to the truth – see catholic.com?”

Those acts don’t hurt anything either, do they? Don’t we have a God given right to do all those things? We didn’t actually damage anything. We are just sharing some of the truth that gives us our superior morality, compared to anyone on the planet who disagrees.

How about if we addressed the coworker directly and not behind their back, and said, “I have some holy water that I believe can be helpful to our souls. I like to bless my desk with it from time to time. I’m about to do that right now. May I sprinkle yours, too? I don’t know your beliefs, but it’s only a few drops and I would love to share some with you?”

Alan

The straw is getting really thick around here!!! LOL

The question is not whether or not we can put crucifixes on someone’s belongings. It is not how much Holy Water is too much.

Christ gave us the right to practice our faith in public. He did not give it to anyone else. Anyone else is worshiping a false god and should be discouraged. Jesus chose not to be here and run the world. He left us in charge. We have to do things the way that He would. The exception to this is when doing so would cause some kind of damage which out ways the good. Of course, discretion must be used.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Thank you again, for entertaining my questions. Far from flippant, I am asking them to make a very serious point.

The straw is getting really thick around here!!! LOL

Yes it is getting thick, and I’m glad you are laughing rather than becoming angry about it.

However, the parts that seem silly are directly derived through simple logic, from your own statements. Show me where my reasoning is wrong, take back your statement, or the joke will be on you.

The question is not whether or not we can put crucifixes on someone’s belongings. It is not how much Holy Water is too much.

Have you changed the question, or did I misunderstand when I read:

Instead of using a garden hose for the Holy Water which may have damaged electronics or paperwork, I used a small spray bottle.

Was that just an offhand comment, or was that part of the answer. If it wasn’t, my bad. If it was, then is it not about the quantity of water that makes it right or wrong? Or would it be OK if you emptied the full contents of a small spray bottle compared with getting a drop or two out of a garden hose?

Christ gave us the right to practice our faith in public. He did not give it to anyone else. Anyone else is worshiping a false god and should be discouraged. Jesus chose not to be here and run the world. He left us in charge. We have to do things the way that He would. The exception to this is when doing so would cause some kind of damage which out ways the good. Of course, discretion must be used.

Can you help me understand where Jesus said that He came to give freedom of religion to only those who were officially part of Peter’s church?
1 Cor 1:12-18:

I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I give thanks (to God) that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. (I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”

Alan

 

[MtnDwellar]

Was that just an offhand comment, or was that part of the answer.

Can you help me understand where Jesus said that He came to give freedom of religion to only those who were officially part of Peter’s church?

Hi Alan,
My water hose/spray bottle comment was my offhanded way of saying that I used discretion.

Your other question requires more thought on my part. I am heading off to work. I will get back to it, or maybe someone else will provide some insights.

God Bless.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Hi Alan,
My water hose/spray bottle comment was my offhanded way of saying that I used discretion.

Your other question requires more thought on my part. I am heading off to work. I will get back to it, or maybe someone else will provide some insights.

God Bless.

I appreciate your entertaining my questions, and without acting upset about it. :tiphat:

BTW, would I testify against you for sprinkling a little holy water? No way. I’ve done much more intrusive things, and even enjoyed the feeling of “sneaking around” and “getting away with it” in the name of the Lord. After all, does not the Son of Man come as a thief in the night? For a while, I would sneak around in the hospital chapel, moving this just a tiny bit, lighting the candles to say a prayer and then putting them out. That is, until I got kicked out by the security and the police because my psychotic behavior was disturbing people. Nobody knew what I had actually done, though, inside the chapel, alone, until this post. I’ll disclose another one, known to no human being other than me, until now. I went in the back room of the chapel where the Holy Water tank was, opened the lid, and dipped my finger in the water. I was convinced that the mere exchange of a few molecules of whatever was on my finger and the Holy Water would give me some sort of intimate connection with anybody who used that Holy Water, and I was all for spiritual unity. I’m not saying that if you do these things you are a psycho – after all, where is the line between genius and madness? :whacky:

But I digress. Somehow I tend to bring every discussion back to me, me, me!

What I’m trying to do is question how we justify bringing our beliefs to bear against another person who doesn’t share our beliefs, and how intrusive may we be when we do? http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif

If we wish to be literalists, which IMO we must if we say we have “complete and true” knowledge, then we need to be able defend our knowledge against all logical attempts to distort it. If we claim our infallible knowledge goes any deeper than the literal sense, then IMO we are saying infallibly know the mind and heart of God. +

I’m not picking on you, personally, but I think it would be fun to consider the difference between confidence and presumption.

Alan

 

[MtnDwellar]

http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif

If we wish to be literalists, which IMO we must if we say we have “complete and true” knowledge, then we need to be able defend our knowledge against all logical attempts to distort it. If we claim our infallible knowledge goes any deeper than the literal sense, then IMO we are saying infallibly know the mind and heart of God. +

I’m not picking on you, personally, but I think it would be fun to consider the difference between confidence and presumption.

Alan

You basically answered the question. Yes, we have complete and true knowledge. It comes in the form of natural law and the divine positive law. The divine positive law is that law given by Christ himself and also that which is provided by the office of the magisterium.

At one time, I had a very good reply. I found something on the net and it made sooo much sense. Now I am having trouble piecing it together from memory

The arguments starts by pointing out several popes who have condemned separation of church and state. Since several popes have repeated this view, it has become part of our tradition. They base their condemnation on the fact that Christ gave authority to the Church to pass judgment on faith and morals. They continue to say that a state which ignores the Church has planted the seeds of its failure. By separation, the state is really saying that it supersedes the Church.

So, after we ignore the civil doctrines of separation, we then turn to another law. Christ told us to teach all nations. We interpret that as people of all faith and cultures.

Now we have to turn to our belief that the Catholic Church, established by Jesus Christ, is the one and only true Church. By virtue of practice of the only true faith, we have the right to practice anywhere we feel like it! We can practice regardless of the faith or culture of those nearby. Non-Christians, because they are worshiping false gods, do not have the same rights.

I apologize. The piece that I found was much better and far more convincing than my presentation. It’s the best I can do right now

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I apologize. The piece that I found was much better and far more convincing than my presentation. It’s the best I can do right now

Honestly, I think I can hold my own against the most sincere absolutists and literalists; I’m about the most anal-retentive person I know of. I’ve just had to hide it because of the mental and emotional abuse I received because I insisted I needed to understand something.

Don’t worry about losing your thoughts. They are an indelible part of you getting to where you are now. Trust the Holy Spirit will bring back the words if and when you need them.

Meanwhile, your words sounded perfectly great to me. They must be what I was supposed to hear.

Until a post falls out of search capability, it remains only a post. But if it dies, it seeds many other posts.

Alan