Communion and Worthiness

[pprimeau1976]

Hello people:

I was wondering if someone out there could help me with some “ideas” that I have been having. When I get “ideas” I get scared because i don’t know who or *what *is putting them in my head. Let me begin with what I have come to believe:

• The “bread” and “wine” are indeed really the body and blood of Christ in the appearances of “bread” and “wine”.
• That no person should approach the table of the lord unworthily as St. Paul put it.
• That holy Communion is just that…Communion. If you are not united with us, you shouldn’t eat with us.
  Despite this, I wasn’t *totally *satisfied. Then I looked at some encyclicals - especially Pius IX’s dogmatic proclamation of the immaculate conception where it says:

We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

I agreed with it, but something just bugged me. It was the phrase “to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.” Well, what does that mean? Does “the faithful” mean all Catholics? Does it mean “faithful Catholics?”

Then I focused on what belief in something means and what faith is. According to the Catechism, "whoever says ‘I believe’ says ‘I pledge myself to what we believe.’ and also in the Catechism it says, “*Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him.” *The links take you to the online Catechism and the last quotation was italicized in the original document. The were italicized in the original text.

Can we then say that the phrase “to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful” can also say “to be believed firmly and constantly by those who were infused with the gift of faith by God?”

The Church has another teaching, that of invincible ignorance. it is my understanding that invincible ignorance is the recognition that there are impediments for people in believing the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith. They also recognize that if that person co-operates with the grace that God gives them, they could make it into heaven. So if that allows them to attend the Eucharist in heaven, should it then allow them to attend the Eucharist on Earth?

Then it hit me as to why I was so disturbed: Why does the Church concern herself as to who is worthy? Additionally, what makes us “in communion”? Once I thought I knew all the answers, they changed all the questions!!!

If anyone can help me clarify my thinking, please do so!!!

Thanks.

 

[pprimeau1976]

I did not duplicate the posts. I just renamed the title after looking at my post.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Bump

 

[Della]

Hello people:

I was wondering if someone out there could help me with some “ideas” that I have been having. When I get “ideas” I get scared because i don’t know who or *what *is putting them in my head. Let me begin with what I have come to believe:

• The “bread” and “wine” are indeed really the body and blood of Christ -]in/-] under the appearances of “bread” and “wine”.
• That no person should approach the table of the lord unworthily as St. Paul put it.
• That holy Communion is just that…Communion. If you are not united with us, you shouldn’t eat with us.
  Despite this, I wasn’t *totally *satisfied. Then I looked at some encyclicals - especially Pius IX’s dogmatic proclamation of the immaculate conception where it says:

I agreed with it, but something just bugged me. It was the phrase “to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.” Well, what does that mean? Does “the faithful” mean all Catholics? Does it mean “faithful Catholics?”

“The faithful” simply means all Catholics.

Then I focused on what belief in something means and what faith is. According to the Catechism, "whoever says ‘I believe’ says ‘I pledge myself to what we believe.’ and also in the Catechism it says, “*Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him.” *The links take you to the online Catechism and the last quotation was italicized in the original document. The were italicized in the original text.

Can we then say that the phrase “to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful” can also say “to be believed firmly and constantly by those who were infused with the gift of faith by God?”

You could put it that way, but the original wording is really plain enough, don’t you think?

The Church has another teaching, that of invincible ignorance. it is my understanding that invincible ignorance is the recognition that there are impediments for people in believing the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith. They also recognize that if that person co-operates with the grace that God gives them, they could make it into heaven. So if that allows them to attend the Eucharist in heaven, should it then allow them to attend the Eucharist on Earth?

Because they are not in union with the teachings of the Church. It would be hypocrisy at the least and dangerous for their souls at the worst since they would most probably not be in a state of grace.

Then it hit me as to why I was so disturbed: Why does the Church concern herself as to who is worthy? Additionally, what makes us “in communion”? Once I thought I knew all the answers, they changed all the questions!!!

If anyone can help me clarify my thinking, please do so!!!

Thanks.

The Church is concerned because it is its duty to protect souls–sometimes from themselves. The Church cannot allow someone whose state of grace isn’t what it ought to be to receive communion because they are not in union with the Church and its teachings.

 

[Sixtus]

Of St paul’s teaching 1Cor 11: 27-31 are true, Communion is not a reward for being good. A Priest recently reminded his congregation that ‘the Eucharist is not a reward for being good, it is a means through which we may become good’.

1John 5: 1 says that ‘everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God’. It is important I think that we recognise that and not beat ourselves up over our human weaknesses

 

[pprimeau1976]

“The faithful” simply means all Catholics.

It could, but then I know from personal experience - that this is not the case.

You could put it that way, but the original wording is really plain enough, don’t you think?

It is plain, but it’s misleading. You *assume *that all the faithful are Catholics, but it is a false assumption. I think that the Church needs to look inward and possible ask itself why aren’t there enough faithful Catholics. Take Confirmation for example. Typically one is confirmed when they are 13. How many of those 13 year olds are confirmed because they are “faithful” as opposed to my parents told me to. My “faithfulness” never occurred for me until I was 30 or so. But who am I to say what needs to be done? I am just a sheep.

Because they are not in union with the teachings of the Church. It would be hypocrisy at the least and dangerous for their souls at the worst since they would most probably not be in a state of grace.

If I remember correctly, (and I could be wrong) other members of other “denominations” are allowed to recieve communion. For example, the Eastern Orthodox, who believe in the Real Presence. But you know just as well as I do that not all Catholics believe in it. So why does the Church think that other members of other “denominations” will to? The Church definitely needs to reinforce the teaching in the Real Presence using any and all apologetical means necessary. Additionally, I think they need to say more clearly and loudly that THIS - the Body and Blood of Christ - is what unites all Christians. Perhaps they could let those who believe in at least that come to the table as well.

The Church is concerned because it is its duty to protect souls–sometimes from themselves.

There are many things the Church should do, but I seem to remember that it’s job was to “Go out into the world, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. But I know that historically it has added more responsibilities for itself. But be realistic for a second. The Church can teach among other things and let the Holy Spirit guide the person. It can’t prevent someone from sinning. If they can, I’d like to ask them where they’ve been for 30 years when it came to my sins.

The Church cannot allow someone whose state of grace isn’t what it ought to be to receive communion because they are not in union with the Church and its teachings.

The can and they can’t. They can through the means of excommunication, like some of the members listed in the “Wolves in Sheeps Clothing” piece. And they can’t because they cannot see the state of a person’s soul. I am not questioning at all it’s teachings on whether someone with mortal sin can recieve, because they shouldn’t.

I guess my whole frustration is that they seem (and I could be wrong) to be preventing the wrong people from receiving Communion, as I think there are faithful “Protestants” that are more worthy of receiving than some “Catholics”. But then again, I do not have the eyes of God.