K
kleary
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The answer is quite clear by studying history. There was a general authentic progress in liturgy and in understanding the Blessed Sacrament and the doctrine of the Real Presence.
Ken
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Communion in the hand: how did it start? Is it licit? Is it the preferred method?
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Ken
A
AJV
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It appears the same because it has roughly the same structure. Texts vary, and the differences are the important ones. None of the Eucharistic Prayers is the same, and they don’t have similar prayers after the Our Father except for the Agnus Dei. [and the CofE has ‘Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles’ as a votive collect]The Anglican Communion Service is Protestant so is the Episcopal liturgy… I attended an Episcopal liturgy - it is the SAME as our Novus Ordo with only minor variations.
Ken
The structure only became roughly the same from the 1970’s- much after the NO. Can’t blame the NO if the Anglicans want to copy stuff from the Catholics and Orthodox, can we, or wear chasubles and use incense and kiss altars? Then too, some of the ‘Anglo-Catholics’ copy everything- first they had English translations of the TLM, then when Rome switched, they switched. The change is a result of the increasing liturgical awareness, and also an increasing acceptance of things previously regarded as anathema.
Compare the Anglican liturgies before and after (apologies for the second long digression: I would have linked to it since I posted it earlier but that was wiped out in the Crash and I do not feel that it is fair that people are left with the impression that the Mass copies the communion service of Protestants when it was the other way around and the result of many in the mainstream denominations losing their aversions to ritualism, prayers to the saints and for the dead, etc. and becoming increasingly pluralistic)
The book of Common prayer 1928, in existence at the time of the revision of the Roman Missal, was a radical revision for the ECUSA incorporating many ‘Catholic’ elements (that were also objected to by some) such saying “The Lord be with you, etc.” before collects, acclamations after the Gospel, etc. all introduced by the increasingly liturgically minded. Their was an option to shift the Lord’s Prayer to after the Eucharistic Prayer instead of the beginning of the Eucharistic Prayer as was deemed customary in the Western rite and was as such in the Roman rite then. It was even introduced with the same words as in the Roman rite (for which reason it was nicknamed the “naughty little preface” was those who saw it as Catholicism through the back door) Anyhow this was the Order:
Our Father
Decalogue with Kyrie interspersed (that could be omitted on some days for a summary and a single Kyrie)
Collect
Epistle
Hymn or sentence to be sung (another ‘Cathlick’ innovation that enabled the so called Anglo-Catholics to sing the Gradual/Tract from the Roman missal)
Gospel
Sermon
Creed
Offertory with sentence from Scripture
Prayer by minister for the Church, rulers, etc.
Confession and form of absolution (no sign of the cross)
The Comfortable Words (verses from Scripture on life through Christ)
Sursum Corda (NOT preceded by “the Lord be with you”)
Preface- some proper prefaces same as in the Roman liturgy (TLM) such as
Easter, Trinity, etc.
Sanctus WITHOUT Benedicitus and ending with “Glory be to thee O Lord most High” instead of “Hosanna in the Highest”
Eucharistic Prayer
(Optional Our Father if not said at beginning)
Prayer of Humble Access
Communion- words of communion as follows (the first part may seem familiar )
Quote:
The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life.
Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving.
Post Communion prayer
Gloria in Excelsis
Blessing (another Catholic custom of kneeling introduced), no provision for the sign of the cross.
This was the general outline as at 1969, with some extra parts such as the Exhortations which could be added in. (contd.)
A
AJV
Guest
1979:It appears the same because it has roughly the same structure. Texts vary, and the differences are the important ones. None of the Eucharistic Prayers is the same, and they don’t have similar prayers after the Our Father except for the Agnus Dei. [and the CofE has ‘Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles’ as a votive collect]
The structure only became roughly the same from the 1970’s- much after the NO. Can’t blame the NO if the Anglicans want to copy stuff from the Catholics and Orthodox, can we, or wear chasubles and use incense and kiss altars? Then too, some of the ‘Anglo-Catholics’ copy everything- first they had English translations of the TLM, then when Rome switched, they switched. The change is a result of the increasing liturgical awareness, and also an increasing acceptance of things previously regarded as anathema.
Compare the Anglican liturgies before and after (apologies for the second long digression: I would have linked to it since I posted it earlier but that was wiped out in the Crash and I do not feel that it is fair that people are left with the impression that the Mass copies the communion service of Protestants when it was the other way around and the result of many in the mainstream denominations losing their aversions to ritualism, prayers to the saints and for the dead, etc. and becoming increasingly pluralistic)
The book of Common prayer 1928, in existence at the time of the revision of the Roman Missal, was a radical revision for the ECUSA incorporating many ‘Catholic’ elements (that were also objected to by some) such saying “The Lord be with you, etc.” before collects, acclamations after the Gospel, etc. all introduced by the increasingly liturgically minded. Their was an option to shift the Lord’s Prayer to after the Eucharistic Prayer instead of the beginning of the Eucharistic Prayer as was deemed customary in the Western rite and was as such in the Roman rite then. It was even introduced with the same words as in the Roman rite (for which reason it was nicknamed the “naughty little preface” was those who saw it as Catholicism through the back door) Anyhow this was the Order:
Our Father
Decalogue with Kyrie interspersed (that could be omitted on some days for a summary and a single Kyrie)
Collect
Epistle
Hymn or sentence to be sung (another ‘Cathlick’ innovation that enabled the so called Anglo-Catholics to sing the Gradual/Tract from the Roman missal)
Gospel
Sermon
Creed
Offertory with sentence from Scripture
Prayer by minister for the Church, rulers, etc.
Confession and form of absolution (no sign of the cross)
The Comfortable Words (verses from Scripture on life through Christ)
Sursum Corda (NOT preceded by “the Lord be with you”)
Preface- some proper prefaces same as in the Roman liturgy (TLM) such as
Easter, Trinity, etc.
Sanctus WITHOUT Benedicitus and ending with “Glory be to thee O Lord most High” instead of “Hosanna in the Highest”
Eucharistic Prayer
(Optional Our Father if not said at beginning)
Prayer of Humble Access
Communion- words of communion as follows (the first part may seem familiar )
Quote:
The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life.
Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving.
Post Communion prayer
Gloria in Excelsis
Blessing (another Catholic custom of kneeling introduced), no provision for the sign of the cross.
This was the general outline as at 1969, with some extra parts such as the Exhortations which could be added in.
Starts: Blessed be God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit (usually accompanied by sign of the cross)
Confession, with another option provided containing things like “we have sinned in thought, word and deed, in what we have done and what we have left undone” and making of the sign of the cross in absolution
Kyrie or Decalogue or Trisagion
Gloria
Collect with “the Lord be with you”
2 readings, followed by Alleluia and then Gospel. Ending changed from “here endeth the Epistle” to “the Word of the Lord. Thanks be to God”.
Creed
Prayers of the faithful- multiple options given including a litanic style based on the Byzantine, the old Anglican ‘Prayer of oblation’[originally introduced in 1552 to make petition for the king, the living, etc. removed from the Roman Canon in the Anglican Eucharistic Prayer by Cranmer]. Also extempore prayers from congregants, prayers of a more ‘modern’ format, prayers incorporating sentences like “Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord and let perpetual light shine on them, prayers commemorating saints. Needless to point out that the last two would have been anathema to Protestant Anglicans of a previous generation.
Kiss of Peace (first time in the BCP)
Offertory with Offertory processions
A
AJV
Guest
In 1979 there was a new BCP.
Starts: Blessed be God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit (usually accompanied by sign of the cross)
Confession, with another option provided containing things like “we have sinned in thought, word and deed, in what we have done and what we have left undone” and making of the sign of the cross in absolution
Kyrie or Decalogue or Trisagion
Gloria
Collect with “the Lord be with you”
2 readings, followed by Alleluia and then Gospel. Ending changed from “here endeth the Epistle” to “the Word of the Lord. Thanks be to God”.
Creed
Prayers of the faithful- multiple options given including a litanic style based on the Byzantine, the old Anglican ‘Prayer of oblation’[originally introduced in 1552 to make petition for the king, the living, etc. removed from the Roman Canon in the Anglican Eucharistic Prayer by Cranmer]. Also extempore prayers from congregants, prayers of a more ‘modern’ format, prayers incorporating sentences like “Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord and let perpetual light shine on them, prayers commemorating saints. Needless to point out that the last two would have been anathema to Protestant Anglicans of a previous generation.
Kiss of Peace (first time in the BCP)
Offertory with Offertory processions
Eucharistic Prayer including “the Lord be with you. And with thy spirit”
Sanctus AND Benedictus
Our Father
Agnus Dei (first time in BCP)
Prayer for Humble Access
Invitation modeled after the Byzantine “Holy things for the holy”
Distribution words “The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was given for thee,
preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. [Optional: Take and eat
this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on
him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving.]” or “The Body of Christ the bread of heaven”
Postcommunion
Blessing form: like in the 1928 blessing or “The blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, be upon you and remain with you for ever.” Note the difference: the 1928 invokes the blessing of God “amongst” while the 1979 invokes it “upon”
Another major difference is the inclusion of Prayers for the Dead and the invoking of saints and angels. Since you attend the TLM, you are probably familiar with the various weekday votive Masses. The 1979 BCP gives special propers for the following. I’m providing a few of the collects and you can check them against your Traditional missal- they are the same :
Holy Trinity
For the departed
For a saint: divided into Apostles, Martyrs, etc.
Various occasions: for peace, leaders of the church, etc.
This is the American BCP which underwent changes in a Catholic direction in 1928 itself. If you take the UK BCP which is from 1662 and omits “the Lord be with you” several times, and Gospel acclamations and responses and so much more, the changes in the CofE’s ASB and CW are even more profound. It even has a version of ‘”Ecce Agnus Dei” with “Domine non sum dignus”.
The above was only general-there are so many things, one can go on and on about the history. In some ways, it’s quite fascinating. Even though some of the Eucharistic Prayers are based on the same source texts they are not the same. Compare them and see what the Anglicans omit.
Starts: Blessed be God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit (usually accompanied by sign of the cross)
Confession, with another option provided containing things like “we have sinned in thought, word and deed, in what we have done and what we have left undone” and making of the sign of the cross in absolution
Kyrie or Decalogue or Trisagion
Gloria
Collect with “the Lord be with you”
2 readings, followed by Alleluia and then Gospel. Ending changed from “here endeth the Epistle” to “the Word of the Lord. Thanks be to God”.
Creed
Prayers of the faithful- multiple options given including a litanic style based on the Byzantine, the old Anglican ‘Prayer of oblation’[originally introduced in 1552 to make petition for the king, the living, etc. removed from the Roman Canon in the Anglican Eucharistic Prayer by Cranmer]. Also extempore prayers from congregants, prayers of a more ‘modern’ format, prayers incorporating sentences like “Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord and let perpetual light shine on them, prayers commemorating saints. Needless to point out that the last two would have been anathema to Protestant Anglicans of a previous generation.
Kiss of Peace (first time in the BCP)
Offertory with Offertory processions
Eucharistic Prayer including “the Lord be with you. And with thy spirit”
Sanctus AND Benedictus
Our Father
Agnus Dei (first time in BCP)
Prayer for Humble Access
Invitation modeled after the Byzantine “Holy things for the holy”
Distribution words “The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was given for thee,
preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. [Optional: Take and eat
this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on
him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving.]” or “The Body of Christ the bread of heaven”
Postcommunion
Blessing form: like in the 1928 blessing or “The blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, be upon you and remain with you for ever.” Note the difference: the 1928 invokes the blessing of God “amongst” while the 1979 invokes it “upon”
Another major difference is the inclusion of Prayers for the Dead and the invoking of saints and angels. Since you attend the TLM, you are probably familiar with the various weekday votive Masses. The 1979 BCP gives special propers for the following. I’m providing a few of the collects and you can check them against your Traditional missal- they are the same :
Holy Trinity
Holy Angels“Almighty God, who hast revealed to thy Church thine eternal Being of glorious majesty and perfect love as one God in Trinity of Persons: Give us grace to continue steadfast in the confession of this faith, and constant in our worship of the, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; for you live and reign, one God, now and for ever. Amen.”
Holy Spirit“O Everlasting God, who hast ordained and constituted the ministries of angels and men in a wonderful order: Mercifully grant that, as thy holy angels always serve and worship thee in heaven, so by thy appointment they may help and defend us on earth; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.”
Holy Eucharist“Almighty and most merciful God, grant, we beseech thee, that by the indwelling of thy Holy Spirit we may be enlightened and strengthened for thy service; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee, in the unity of theHoly Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.”
Holy Cross“God our Father, whose Son our Lord Jesus Christ in a wonderful Sacrament hath left unto us a memorial of his passion: Grant us so to venerate the sacred mysteries of his
Body and Blood, that we may ever perceive within ourselves the fruit of his redemption; who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.Amen.”
Reign of Christ“Almighty God, whose beloved Son willingly endured the agony and shame of the cross for our redemption: Give us courage, we beseech thee, to take up our cross and follow him; who liveth and reigneth with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.”
For the departed
For a saint: divided into Apostles, Martyrs, etc.
Various occasions: for peace, leaders of the church, etc.
This is the American BCP which underwent changes in a Catholic direction in 1928 itself. If you take the UK BCP which is from 1662 and omits “the Lord be with you” several times, and Gospel acclamations and responses and so much more, the changes in the CofE’s ASB and CW are even more profound. It even has a version of ‘”Ecce Agnus Dei” with “Domine non sum dignus”.
The above was only general-there are so many things, one can go on and on about the history. In some ways, it’s quite fascinating. Even though some of the Eucharistic Prayers are based on the same source texts they are not the same. Compare them and see what the Anglicans omit.
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