Complicated Return to Church (Family Related)

[VirtusTransitus]

Background first, then looking for insights.

I was raised Catholic and was very active as a kid/young adult. But in college, I strayed and have lived my life over the past 23 years or so in a very agnostic way. Honorable, moral, and decent - but not in communion with the Church. I’m a military officer and will retire in 8 months after 24 years of service. I’m also a recovered alchoholic (4 years) and AA member.

I married an unbaptized agnostic in a Universalist style church (21 years now) and we have three daughters (13, 7 and 4). We had trouble conceiving for about 7 years, and worked up the infertility treatment chain to IVF for my oldest two. Youngest was God’s surprise to us.

After my youngest daughter was born, I had a vascectomy.

We’ve raised our kids to be honest, polite, moral, responsible kids. But they know absolutely nothing substantial about any religion, and certainly not Catholicism. My wife is very critical of the Catholic church for feminist reasons (abortion, contraception, female clergy) and because of the sex abuse scandals of the last two or three decades. She’ll never entertain conversion, and in fact has insisted that I keep my return to the faith quiet from the kids as long as possible. Right now, my tacit agreement with her is that I won’t evangelize my kids and I won’t initiate discussion with them on religion until they’re 13, which my oldest just turned.

Our marriage has been rocky to say the least. But we’ve managed to stay together until recently her anger issues and verbal/emotional outbursts with/against the kids became unbearable. I left the house for a bit, but am back now and we’re seeing a counselor (about the 5th or 6th time over the years). Progress is of the 5 steps forward 4.5 steps back kind.

I’ve been feeling the pull back to the church for a long time - at least 6 years. However, out of respect for my wife, I tried to find a middle way - Unitarian church was just way too weird (don’t think I heard the name of God much) and the Methodist church was too much for her and not enough for me. So I finally stopped messing around and just told her I was going back to my roots. She is OK with it for me, but is very defensive about herself and my girls.

When I retire from the military in July of 2013, we’ll be moving to Northern California, so I have a new job, a new home, and a challenging secular culture on my immediate horizon.

There’s a lot of stuff on my/our plate right now.

Here are my questions:

1. Since my wife is unbaptized and insisting that I not evangelize my kids or have open discussion with them until they are 13, will that be an impediment to convalidating my marriage? I want to get back to sacramental life, but right now am technically living in sin (I’m very faithful to my wife). I’ve consulted one of the parish priests and will do so again, but it’s difficult to match schedules in such a big place (Las Vegas).
2. My middle brother (I’m the oldest of three), who I love and respect, is gay. As a cradle Catholic who was living an agnostic life, I was very supportive of him in almost every way. Now that I’m returning to the church, and am in full awareness and agreement with church teaching on same-sex attraction and legitimate marriage, how do I approach this with my brother? Do I approach it at all? My gut tells me it is best to have a focused discussion about it and get all the cards out on the table. Do I risk permanent alienation? Scary to think our already infrequent contact (because I’m roaming the globe) could get worse. How do I handle this?
3. Should I break my tacit agreement with my wife that leaves me in stealth mode regarding the church and religion? Her great fear is that the younger girls will want to go with Daddy when he goes to church, and she says she wants them to make up her own mind (which is really code for I want them to be agnostic as long as possible). Knowing how fragile our marriage is, do I risk divorce by pressing this issue? My own worry is that I’m not allowing God to enter into my girls’ lives - they’ve not been baptized, they’ve certainly not been cathecized. They really are secular animals with only a passing knowlege of “religion”. Small steps? Or rip the bandaid off?
4. How do I have a discussion with my girls about Catholicism when the oldest two are a product of a procedure that I’m pretty certain is not approved (actually forbidden) by the Church? How do I defend against the arguement that if it were up to the Catholic Church, my two oldest daughters would not exist? I know I could say God would have brought them to us regardless if it were his plan, but that’s not going to work with either these kids or my wife.

If you’re still reading, thanks and looking forward to maybe some insight on some of this.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t think I can give you any solutions, but I just want to say welcome to CAF and welcome home to the Church! It’s good that you are in marital counseling - you do have a lot of challenges to work through. It sounds as though the religious issues may be only a part of what is going on in your marriage and with your wife.

I really think one of the best things you could do is go and talk to your parish priest. Tell him everything that is going on, where things stand, and then listen to his advice.

Again, welcome and glad you are here!



p.s. Your relationship with your brother does not have to change at all. He is not a different person because you are reverting. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Same with your daughters - you know how they were conceived but it does not have to be an issue at this time. Don’t bring it up to them. If they already know how they were conceived, then it may arise at some point, but don’t YOU make it an issue. You will need to confess all of this at some point, but the priest can guide you in that as well.

 

[Della]

(edited for space)
Here are my questions:

1. Since my wife is unbaptized and insisting that I not evangelize my kids or have open discussion with them until they are 13, will that be an impediment to convalidating my marriage? I want to get back to sacramental life, but right now am technically living in sin (I’m very faithful to my wife). I’ve consulted one of the parish priests and will do so again, but it’s difficult to match schedules in such a big place (Las Vegas).

I’m not sure if your wife being unbaptized would have any effect on convalidating your marriage. For that you’ll have to consult your priest. She would have to be willing to participate. However, it is true your marriage is not considered sacramentally valid (although legally valid). As a Catholic parent you have as much right to teach your children about religion/your faith as your wife does. But see question #3 below.

1. My middle brother (I’m the oldest of three), who I love and respect, is gay. As a cradle Catholic who was living an agnostic life, I was very supportive of him in almost every way. Now that I’m returning to the church, and am in full awareness and agreement with church teaching on same-sex attraction and legitimate marriage, how do I approach this with my brother? Do I approach it at all? My gut tells me it is best to have a focused discussion about it and get all the cards out on the table. Do I risk permanent alienation? Scary to think our already infrequent contact (because I’m roaming the globe) could get worse. How do I handle this?

I too have a “gay” relative so I know how hard this can be. I havn’t preached to her or told her how she should be living her life–that’s not my job. I love her and support her as a person–not her lifestyle, which has been nothing but heartache for her, poor girl. You can’t make another person do what you want, but you can pray and be loving and understanding of their dilemma.

1. Should I break my tacit agreement with my wife that leaves me in stealth mode regarding the church and religion? Her great fear is that the younger girls will want to go with Daddy when he goes to church, and she says she wants them to make up her own mind (which is really code for I want them to be agnostic as long as possible). Knowing how fragile our marriage is, do I risk divorce by pressing this issue? My own worry is that I’m not allowing God to enter into my girls’ lives - they’ve not been baptized, they’ve certainly not been cathecized. They really are secular animals with only a passing knowlege of “religion”. Small steps? Or rip the bandaid off?

She cannot demand that you remain silent because she doesn’t want “her” girls to be influenced. That’s not fair. I rather think she knows it. Your daughters have the right to know about the Catholic faith and you have the right to take them to Mass. Pastorally, though you should try to allay your wife’s fears and misconceptions rather than pushing her to do what you want–for the sake of her soul and your marriage. If your kids see you arguing over religion that might make a bigger impression than anything else–a negative one you don’t want them to have. So, you have to use your best judgment on how to procede.

1. How do I have a discussion with my girls about Catholicism when the oldest two are a product of a procedure that I’m pretty certain is not approved (actually forbidden) by the Church? How do I defend against the arguement that if it were up to the Catholic Church, my two oldest daughters would not exist? I know I could say God would have brought them to us regardless if it were his plan, but that’s not going to work with either these kids or my wife.

If you’re still reading, thanks and looking forward to maybe some insight on some of this.

You can tell them, when they’re old enough to understand, that even though we may do things we think are right in the wrong way God can make good come out of it, just the same. That’s how God shows us how much he loves us. Your girls are the good that came out of doing something good the wrong way. For example, it’s right and good to provide for your family, but if you took up a life of crime to do so, that would be wrong.

Continue to go to Mass and talk to your priest. And pray, pray, pray. God can break through anyone’s hurt/misconceptions/whatever. I rather think your wife has been acting out from fear–fear of losing control over what she thought was a done deal. You need to be patient and loving with her. Breaking up families is not what the Church is in business to do. Christ wishes to mend your lives, not hurt you more. Still, you can’t make anyone see things as you do or do what you want–that’s an illusion. All you can do is be an example of God’s love and leave the rest to him. God bless you. You have my prayers this Advent and Christmas Season.

 

[Julia_Mae]

1. Since my wife is unbaptized and insisting that I not evangelize my kids or have open discussion with them until they are 13, will that be an impediment to convalidating my marriage?
2. My middle brother (I’m the oldest of three), who I love and respect, is gay.
3. Should I break my tacit agreement with my wife that leaves me in stealth mode regarding the church and religion?
4. How do I have a discussion with my girls about Catholicism when the oldest two are a product of a procedure that I’m pretty certain is not approved (actually forbidden) by the Church?

If you’re still reading, thanks and looking forward to maybe some insight on some of this.

I’m going to make a comment on something you didn’t ask but did bring up: if your wife’s outbursts of anger toward the children became unbearable - then why would you ever leave them alone with her? Thank God you went back.

I don’t see any hope at all or having your marriage convalidated until you have prayed for your wife for quite a long time. Your brother is to be treated with respect and kindness as per the Catechism and as I am sure you are doing, anyway. You aren’t responsible for his choices.

It really doesn’t matter how your children were conceived in terms of the Faith, because you cannot say they would not have been born without the procedure. In fact, you can point out that with the birth of your third child, you know that you lacked faith in God being able to handle the matter, which He seems to have done nicely in His Own time. The lengths that you went to to have them is just a testament to how much you wanted them in your life: a good thing.

Your wife: I suspect with her reactions and what you describe she has something from her childhood she really needs to resolve. I imagine you are continuing marital counselling, but I suggest a separate therapist for your wife. She’s not angry about nothing. Also, she is at an age where hormones start changing rapidly and might be peri-menopausal, which doesn’t help.

Talking to your children: I would not keep my church attendance a secret or talk about it, but would explain to all that you and your wife agreed you want them to be 13 before they start looking into, if they start asking. If the 13 year old wants to go, well, she gets to go. Telling the others they have to wait will just make them want to go more.

Lastly: don’t leave your children with your wife. If you have to leave, they come, too. And that’s not about religion, that’s from experience. First we take care of those who cannot defend themselves.

I’m really sorry this is so difficult for you. I’m sorry your wife seems so unhappy and in so much pain. Praying for you all.

 

[sousley]

Congratulations on making these important steps toward Home!
Some of the past failures are things that can keep us down and inspire feelings of guilt that encumber our journey toward accepting God’s protection. Guard yourself against these. Realize that our sins have no dominion over God’s infinite mercy. You just work on examination of conscience and contrition and let Him deal with the rest.
Next, I would suggest a book (fairly short), that you can download for free online called “The Imitation of Christ.” It is helpful to recognize areas where we sometimes try to “control our life” and curbs us toward surrendering to God. Also, start with pertinent areas of the Catechism or Humanae Vitae to appreciate that the Catholic Church does not oppress women in ways that feminism portrays, in fact, very much the opposite.
I would work on engaging yourself to God and the truth of the Church and let the “oppositions” come to you rather than seeking them out. Let God speak to you and learn to listen. When the argument comes, say a quick prayer and let Him help you answer it. Our prayers go out to you.

 

[silicasandra]

…We’ve raised our kids to be honest, polite, moral, responsible kids. But they know absolutely nothing substantial about any religion, and certainly not Catholicism. My wife is very critical of the Catholic church for feminist reasons (abortion, contraception, female clergy) and because of the sex abuse scandals of the last two or three decades. **She’ll never entertain conversion, **…

Welcome to CAF!

Unfortunately, I can’t address some of the more major parts of your post, though some other posters will do that very well. But I did want to address this part. You would be surprised about who, exactly, ends up converting. I used to be rabidly pro-choice, I contracepted (and engaged in premarital sex), and thought that the fact that there were no female priests meant that the Catholics were living in the “Dark Ages”. But I also discovered that many of my preconceived notions about the Church and its moral teachings (the way “the world” sees us) were completely rooted in ignorance. That, and prayer, opened my heart to conversion.

I don’t say this to try and give you false hope, but I also want to tell you to “never say never.” You’d be surprised how many saints led absolutely decadent, immoral lifestyles who ended up “coming home.”

Prayer is a powerful weapon (and shield.) Use it! :knight2:

I will be praying for you and your wife.

 

[Bill1940]

Please forgive me if this doesn’t relate to your situation but it’s the first thing I thought of so I’ll go with it. You seem to be confronted with impediments to you and your family entering into the Kingdom. So consider the Gospel of Matthew Chapter 19 Verses 23 - 26. Our Lord said, it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. His disciples were “astonished” and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Our Lord answered, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Now, I’ll bet you folks are not rich so for God, solving your problems is easy. Never give up. Keep on keeping on and always be kind. The Lord will do the rest.

 

[VirtusTransitus]

I’ve really enjoyed reading the responses, folks. Thanks very much. Please keep them coming.

This is a very challenging period for me. I’m not exactly Type A+++++, but find it difficult to exercise patience in some of this. My instinct is to take affirmative action when patient faith is more called for.

I turn so much of the rest of my life over to God (career, for instance). But it is very difficult to just muddle through the personal, relationship stuff and let it all unfold.

I try to pray the Rosary every day - succeed most days. It definitely helps.

 

[LEMAITRE]

Background first, then looking for insights.

I was raised Catholic and was very active as a kid/young adult. But in college, I strayed and have lived my life over the past 23 years or so in a very agnostic way. Honorable, moral, and decent - but not in communion with the Church. I’m a military officer and will retire in 8 months after 24 years of service. I’m also a recovered alchoholic (4 years) and AA member.

I married an unbaptized agnostic in a Universalist style church (21 years now) and we have three daughters (13, 7 and 4). We had trouble conceiving for about 7 years, and worked up the infertility treatment chain to IVF for my oldest two. Youngest was God’s surprise to us.

After my youngest daughter was born, I had a vascectomy.

We’ve raised our kids to be honest, polite, moral, responsible kids. But they know absolutely nothing substantial about any religion, and certainly not Catholicism. My wife is very critical of the Catholic church for feminist reasons (abortion, contraception, female clergy) and because of the sex abuse scandals of the last two or three decades. She’ll never entertain conversion, and in fact has insisted that I keep my return to the faith quiet from the kids as long as possible. Right now, my tacit agreement with her is that I won’t evangelize my kids and I won’t initiate discussion with them on religion until they’re 13, which my oldest just turned.

Our marriage has been rocky to say the least. But we’ve managed to stay together until recently her anger issues and verbal/emotional outbursts with/against the kids became unbearable. I left the house for a bit, but am back now and we’re seeing a counselor (about the 5th or 6th time over the years). Progress is of the 5 steps forward 4.5 steps back kind.

I’ve been feeling the pull back to the church for a long time - at least 6 years. However, out of respect for my wife, I tried to find a middle way - Unitarian church was just way too weird (don’t think I heard the name of God much) and the Methodist church was too much for her and not enough for me. So I finally stopped messing around and just told her I was going back to my roots. She is OK with it for me, but is very defensive about herself and my girls.

When I retire from the military in July of 2013, we’ll be moving to Northern California, so I have a new job, a new home, and a challenging secular culture on my immediate horizon.

There’s a lot of stuff on my/our plate right now.

Here are my questions:

1. Since my wife is unbaptized and insisting that I not evangelize my kids or have open discussion with them until they are 13, will that be an impediment to convalidating my marriage? I want to get back to sacramental life, but right now am technically living in sin (I’m very faithful to my wife). I’ve consulted one of the parish priests and will do so again, but it’s difficult to match schedules in such a big place (Las Vegas).
2. My middle brother (I’m the oldest of three), who I love and respect, is gay. As a cradle Catholic who was living an agnostic life, I was very supportive of him in almost every way. Now that I’m returning to the church, and am in full awareness and agreement with church teaching on same-sex attraction and legitimate marriage, how do I approach this with my brother? Do I approach it at all? My gut tells me it is best to have a focused discussion about it and get all the cards out on the table. Do I risk permanent alienation? Scary to think our already infrequent contact (because I’m roaming the globe) could get worse. How do I handle this?
3. Should I break my tacit agreement with my wife that leaves me in stealth mode regarding the church and religion? Her great fear is that the younger girls will want to go with Daddy when he goes to church, and she says she wants them to make up her own mind (which is really code for I want them to be agnostic as long as possible). Knowing how fragile our marriage is, do I risk divorce by pressing this issue? My own worry is that I’m not allowing God to enter into my girls’ lives - they’ve not been baptized, they’ve certainly not been cathecized. They really are secular animals with only a passing knowlege of “religion”. Small steps? Or rip the bandaid off?
4. How do I have a discussion with my girls about Catholicism when the oldest two are a product of a procedure that I’m pretty certain is not approved (actually forbidden) by the Church? How do I defend against the arguement that if it were up to the Catholic Church, my two oldest daughters would not exist? I know I could say God would have brought them to us regardless if it were his plan, but that’s not going to work with either these kids or my wife.

If you’re still reading, thanks and looking forward to maybe some insight on some of this.

First of all, Welcome Home.

You know St Augustine was a womaniser and rebel and came home thanks to his mum St Monica. Don’t be too hard on yourself.

You have a lot going on at the moment. I will pray for your family, that all of you come home.

Sounds like your wife is going through a tough patch. Are you in relationship counselling? If not, I would recommend it.

Love and support your brother. His orientation is his cross to bear. Confiding in him that you have returned to the faith will tell him all he needs to know. If he asks questions, respond kindly and calmly.

I’m a younger CAF member with no children so feel I shouldn’t give advice on children. Maybe some of the parents on here will have some insight.

 

[kaneata]

I would concentrate on making your home a safe place for the children. Do something if she is being abusive towards the kids, don’t abandon them!

Be holy, pray for your wife. Your example of going to church and praying are very powerful. Keep talking to her about how important this is to you. The children are yours too and it’s not fair to them to be denied the gifts the Church has to offer.

Talk to them about God. They have a right to know.

Keep going to counseling.

 

[Tingo]

I am always distressed when I see religion contributing to stresses in a family. I know if can often be helpful as well, but this is a tough situation. It seems to me as a military man you need to articulate a strategy and not just describe the terrain. This could be summed up as: return to the Church and limit collateral damage to my family. As a strategy this helps answers questions about all the things you are wanting to do at once: blue a Catholic, learn about the Church, evangelize your children, have a devout relationship with your gay brother etc etc. If you were in an engagement and a fellow officer proposed doing that number of things all at once and with the same priority, you would tell him or her that they were affecting the strategic mission. So too with you. You need to get back in the Church, affecting other things as little as possible. Then, having secured that ground, you need to look at I what to do. If your kids see good in you as a result of your conversion they will love you more for it. They may not become come more interested in the Church, or they may. But if they see bad in you as a result, they will transfer their hurt onto the Church, and perhaps they will be right to do so. So stick to the strategy: it is about you, not the kids or your wife. Incidentally, I imagine your wife does good as well as bad? You have not mentioned any of that side. You need to think about her goodness as well to be balanced and in Christian terms, charitable. Good luck.

 

[VirtusTransitus]

If you were in an engagement and a fellow officer proposed doing that number of things all at once and with the same priority, you would tell him or her that they were affecting the strategic mission. So too with you. You need to get back in the Church, affecting other things as little as possible. Then, having secured that ground, you need to look at I what to do. If your kids see good in you as a result of your conversion they will love you more for it. They may not become come more interested in the Church, or they may. But if they see bad in you as a result, they will transfer their hurt onto the Church, and perhaps they will be right to do so. So stick to the strategy: it is about you, not the kids or your wife. Incidentally, I imagine your wife does good as well as bad? You have not mentioned any of that side. You need to think about her goodness as well to be balanced and in Christian terms, charitable. Good luck.

Thanks, Tingo. Great stuff there. Embarrassed to say I have a lot of experience in strategy and haven’t taken quite this approach. You’re right. I need to patiently do the first things first.

 

[takers]

1. Since my wife is unbaptized and insisting that I not evangelize my kids or have open discussion with them until they are 13, will that be an impediment to convalidating my marriage? I want to get back to sacramental life, but right now am technically living in sin (I’m very faithful to my wife). I’ve consulted one of the parish priests and will do so again, but it’s difficult to match schedules in such a big place (Las Vegas).

I think that your focus should not be on your family’s faith journey (or lack-there-of) but your own right now. You have recently returned to exploring your faith after a long period away. Instead of grabbing the hands of your family and pulling them in to the water with you, instead let them hang out on the shoreline while you jump into the water. After seeing you do this time and time again your wife may realize that her fears were misled and your children may become interested in their own right in what you’re doing. I think if you force your wife and children to follow in your direction before they’re ready they will turn away and stay away.

1. My middle brother (I’m the oldest of three), who I love and respect, is gay. As a cradle Catholic who was living an agnostic life, I was very supportive of him in almost every way. Now that I’m returning to the church, and am in full awareness and agreement with church teaching on same-sex attraction and legitimate marriage, how do I approach this with my brother? Do I approach it at all? My gut tells me it is best to have a focused discussion about it and get all the cards out on the table. Do I risk permanent alienation? Scary to think our already infrequent contact (because I’m roaming the globe) could get worse. How do I handle this?

One of the things I notice about new converts (or those recently returning to their faith) is how overzealous they tend to become in legalism. What good does telling your brother about your new-found faith and beliefs against gays do but alienate him during a time when you want to be bringing him closer. You mention that you have a somewhat distant relationship due to living far apart and now you want to potentially cut off your brother by having a discussion that is a 180 of how you’ve been with him in the past. I would shelve this conversation (if it ever needs to happen) to a much later time. Get your own house in order, so to speak, before you start in on another one.

1. Should I break my tacit agreement with my wife that leaves me in stealth mode regarding the church and religion? Her great fear is that the younger girls will want to go with Daddy when he goes to church, and she says she wants them to make up her own mind (which is really code for I want them to be agnostic as long as possible). Knowing how fragile our marriage is, do I risk divorce by pressing this issue? My own worry is that I’m not allowing God to enter into my girls’ lives - they’ve not been baptized, they’ve certainly not been cathecized. They really are secular animals with only a passing knowlege of “religion”. Small steps? Or rip the bandaid off?

Focus on your own journey first. I would talk to your wife and express how excited you are about returning to mass and that you’d like the option to be open to your children. Not requiring them to attend, not guilting them for not attending, but if the occasion comes up where they express interest in going with you that you are open to bringing them. I would even start smaller. Talk about occasionally saying a small prayer before dinner. See how that goes for a while, then try another small (but slightly bigger) step.

1. How do I have a discussion with my girls about Catholicism when the oldest two are a product of a procedure that I’m pretty certain is not approved (actually forbidden) by the Church? How do I defend against the arguement that if it were up to the Catholic Church, my two oldest daughters would not exist? I know I could say God would have brought them to us regardless if it were his plan, but that’s not going to work with either these kids or my wife.

IF this question comes up (meaning there’s no point for you to bring it up to them right now) then explain that you love them so much but as you’ve gotten deeper into your faith you realize that the church feels that certain infertility procedures try to remove God from the equation and you now realize that’s wrong. You’re thankful that they are here and from now on you will do a better job at following the ways of the church.

If you’re still reading, thanks and looking forward to maybe some insight on some of this.

I’m happy that coming back to the Catholic faith has made you much happier in your life. Have you thought of attending an RCIA or Catholics Come Home session? I hope your journey gets easier and easier!

 

[VirtusTransitus]

Thanks, takers. I think the theme seems to be:

Have faith (patience).
First things first.
Be charitable.
Don’t let fear guide me.

 

[takers]

Thanks, takers. I think the theme seems to be:

Have faith (patience).
First things first.
Be charitable.
Don’t let fear guide me.

LOL! Well, if you don’t want to blather on and on and just speak concisely then I suppose your answer will do.

 

[VirtusTransitus]

LOL! Well, if you don’t want to blather on and on and just speak concisely then I suppose your answer will do.

Believe me. I blather. Almost as a rule. I’m just summarizing the consistent message from you and others. It’s wisdom, I think, and I’m glad I asked.