Concerning the alleged 'Great Apostasy' and how to discuss it...

[catholic-rcia]

Hello catholic-rcia,

These are good questions you brought to the table.

The LDS Church do not believe in transubstantiation. .

For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24 and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 12 28 A person should examine himself, 13 and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment 14 on himself. For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." (1 Cor 11:26) “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body for we all partake of the one loaf” (1 Cor 11:16-17 and 1 Cor 12).

This is the prayer of cosecration:

Before he was given up to death, a death he freely accepted, he took bread and gave you thanks. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said:
Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my Body which will be given up for you.
When supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said:
Take this, all of you, and drink from it; this is the cup of my Blood, the Blood of the New and Everlasting Covenant. It will be shed for you and for all men so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.

You can not miss this, we do as we were commanded to do, By the very instruction of Jesus our Lord amd our God. we do the “this” that He asked us to do. You are not alone in your judgment and dis beleif, read all of Johns Gospel chapter 6.

 

[Third_Day]

=pinay;6710288]Wait, before I go…I forgot to address the question about John holding the priesthood keys.Okay, **so from what we know, Peter, James, and John held the priesthood keys **to lead the church with Peter at the head. Paul was the apostle given specific keys to lead the gentiles.

Only Peter was given the keys

James died first, then Peter, then John is the last. The Catholic Church do not recognize John as being Peter’s successor

. John is not Peter’s successor. WHen James was martyred he was not replaced like Judas was. That was because the office of Bishop was already established. The Bishops succeeded the apostles.

But, whether he exercised his priesthood authority before his death does not matter. He still held the keys to the church.

WHere does scripture or tradition say that John held the keys to the Church?

Therefore, at the time that he was alive on earth, the priesthood keys to lead the church was present on earth as well.

According to the Church Fathers,while John was still alive, Linus, Cletus and Clement had succeeded Peter as head of the Church

And I’m very glad Third Day segued the role of John for the church.
In the restored gospel, we find that John held a big role in the church. The Book of Mormon hold information that confirm John’s writings (as found in the Bible) as scripture among other things

.Please quote some of John’s writings not found in the bible that say he hold the keys of the Church

In Doctrine and Covenants Chapter 7 that Third Day referred to, it is revealed that God gave John power over death - that is, he was translated, that is, God changed him from mortal to immortal without having to pass through physical death. So no, he doesn’t walk the earth like you and I do - as we are still mortal beings.

The Bible doesn’t say that John became immortal. Mormons completely mis- interpret John 21:23.

 

[Nicea325]

Hi Nicea. Good evening, sir (or is it ma’am?),

There are tons of writings on it. But whether one accepts it as a total apostasy is something else. You will only find that in the LDS scriptures.

Then please present the so-called writings on the Great Apostasy so many rant and rave about.

I have pointed out 2 writings already on this thread: Martin Luther’s grievances against the pope and Jose Rizal’s grievances against the Spanish friars. Both point to apostate practices of the papal office. We can’t really count anything written that the papacy does not involve because this could be just apostate teachings by human factors in a spiritual organization.

Luther’s and Rizal’s grievances is proof of an apostasy? What orthodox doctrines did the pope violate?

You can add the treatment of Galileo in the hands of the papal office, the writings against the Spanish Inquisition, even the writings of Mahatma Ghandi against British Christianity.

Galileo is an entire different matter not related to any apostasy.

Of course, the only source that points to the Great Apostasy is the history of the LDS church. No other church requires that a Great Apostasy happen. All protestant churches as well as other Catholic denominations outside of the Roman Catholic Church point to certain apostate conditions of the RCC but not a single one of them calls it a total falling away. Because, for protestant churches, apostolic succession is irrelevant. And for other Catholic denominations outside of the RCC, their apostolic succession is the same as the Catholics up to a certain point. Only the LDS claim apostolic succession from Peter.

Name one apostate condition of the RCC?

But, see, history can only get us so far in matters of spirituality. We have the pieces of the puzzle, but no way to put the picture together without the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.

History can only get us so far when it is convenient. I still have not seen substantial historical evidence to support such an event.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve,

He did read several different translations. He went to different churches too. But the King James version is where he found the most learning from.

You can make of it what you will. Everything is conjecture.

But, if I apply it to my life for example - English is only my 3rd language. But, in the Philippines, the medium of instruction from elementary to college is English. So, I became a computer engineer. Now, I need to write a scientific journal on some technological analysis I have made. I wouldn’t know how to write it in either one of my 2 base languages. I didn’t learn technology in Filipino, I learned it in English. I can’t even begin to tell you how to translate “computer” into Filipino. So then God comes to me and says, “Pinay, ang calculador ay matanda na.” to say that “that computer is old now” using “calculador” for “computer” (I honestly don’t know what the translation is), I wouldn’t have a clue what He is speaking of.

So, sure, you can make of it what you will. That’s my experience and it’s what I make of it. For my understanding is enhanced or limited by my own experiences which is the only authority of which I speak in this forum.

God luck with that.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Wait, before I go…

I forgot to address the question about John holding the priesthood keys. Okay, so from what we know, Peter, James, and John held the priesthood keys to lead the church with Peter at the head.

Really? Please show me where Jesus gave John the keys. I truly do not remember seeing that in the Bible.

James died first, then Peter, then John is the last. The Catholic Church do not recognize John as being Peter’s successor. But, whether he exercised his priesthood authority before his death does not matter. He still held the keys to the church. Therefore, at the time that he was alive on earth, the priesthood keys to lead the church was present on earth as well.

Since the LDS Church believes John never died, then there was no need for a restoration.

In Doctrine and Covenants Chapter 7 that Third Word referred to, it is revealed that God gave John power over death - that is, he was translated, that is, God changed him from mortal to immortal without having to pass through physical death. So no, he doesn’t walk the earth like you and I do - as we are still mortal beings.

Ah…another teaching that Mormons, seeing the fallacy of the teaching, have backed off from. I was taught that John AND the three Nephites, still walk the earth. In fact, there were legends I hedard about where a person appeared to help a Mormon and it turned out it was John or one of the three nephites. I am glad the LDS Church has backed off of this teaching.

 

[ginoparadela]

the LDS church and the RCC can work together towards glorifying God.