Conductors?

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didymus

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This may sound like a silly question but when in the evolution of music were conductors invented? And exactly how necessary are they?

I ask because I was watching some performances on YouTube, Leonard Bernstein both playing and conducting Rhapsody in Blue and a Japanese conductor named Uchida [sp?] doing the same for a Mozart piano concerto.
Especially for the Mozart the orchestra played for extended periods with no one at the baton. In fact it seemed odd to see Uchida suddenly stand up and start waving her arms, my reaction was, “They seemed to be doing fine without you.”

Maybe I should also ask just when the orchestra took shape.
 
Musical groups have always needed leaders of some kind. Even African drumming groups have a certain instrument that plays a leadership role and plays signals to the other instruments and dancers to change tempo, rhythm etc. In the middle ages, a lead singer would use signals to keep the rest of the group together. This was necessary since only a select few musicians could read music and there was generally only one copy of the music anyway, since paper was very expensive. I’m not sure why the leader became a separate person from the performers, but it was an established practice by the renaissance. Maybe it’s much easier when you have an orchestra with a whole lot of players, because the gestures are much larger so everyone can see them. Chamber groups usually follow more subtle breathing and head movements.
 
If an orchestra has experience playing together and the piece of music they are playing is well-known to them, they may rely somewhat less on a conductor. There have been cases in which an aging and forgetful conductor has NOT been followed by the orchestra because they know the piece better than he does. However, when a musical piece is new or the orchestra members are not so experienced working together, a good conductor is essential. Of course, a conductor not only keeps the orchestra players together but imparts his vision of the composition.
 
meltzerboy said:
If an orchestra has experience playing together and the piece of music they are playing is well-known to them, they may rely somewhat less on a conductor. There have been cases in which an aging and forgetful conductor has NOT been followed by the orchestra because they know the piece better than he does. However, when a musical piece is new or the orchestra members are not so experienced working together, a good conductor is essential. Of course, a conductor not only keeps the orchestra players together but imparts his vision of the composition.
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I don’t wish to speak for the OP, but as I read the thread, this is how I would understand the OP’s question. You say “of course,” but for those of us who are not well educated in music, it’s not clear to me at all how a conductor would do this. I can take my knowledge of other subjects in and say, leaders are important for group dynamics of all kinds, and while presumably all the musicians can keep time and know their own parts it might be useful to have someone keeping them more closely together. But after that my knowledge ends.
 
pensmama87 said:
I don’t wish to speak for the OP, but as I read the thread, this is how I would understand the OP’s question. You say “of course,” but for those of us who are not well educated in music, it’s not clear to me at all how a conductor would do this. I can take my knowledge of other subjects in and say, leaders are important for group dynamics of all kinds, and while presumably all the musicians can keep time and know their own parts it might be useful to have someone keeping them more closely together. But after that my knowledge ends.
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Actually keeping time is something that most musicians are not so dependent on, especially for a familiar piece. A conductor who is merely a time-keeper is regarded as either a novice or a bad conductor. Most of the musicians’ work with a conductor on a musical composition comes during rehearsal, and this includes the phrasing–whether legato (flowing) or staccato (abrupt)–volume and increase in intensity or crescendo as well as decrescendo, acceleration or deceleration of a phrase, tonal coloring, and so on. The hands or baton of the conductor during performance also indicate this, but only after the hard work of rehearsal has been accomplished.
 
meltzerboy said:
Actually keeping time is something that most musicians are not so dependent on, especially for a familiar piece. A conductor who is merely a time-keeper is regarded as either a novice or a bad conductor. Most of the musicians’ work with a conductor on a musical composition comes during rehearsal
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This is absolutely correct!

The better the group, the less they need a conductor at a performance. But in rehearsal, a conductor is essential – he/she is probably the only one who can hear the group’s work as a whole.

I find it great fun to watch conductors at rehearsals and live performances to see how the conductor interacts with the group. 😃
 
As for playing and conducting, it comes from a very old practice of the conductor playing a bass part at the harpsichord and conducting with the other hand if necessary.
 
meltzerboy said:
Actually keeping time is something that most musicians are not so dependent on, especially for a familiar piece. A conductor who is merely a time-keeper is regarded as either a novice or a bad conductor. Most of the musicians’ work with a conductor on a musical composition comes during rehearsal, and this includes the phrasing–whether legato (flowing) or staccato (abrupt)–volume and increase in intensity or crescendo as well as decrescendo, acceleration or deceleration of a phrase, tonal coloring, and so on. The hands or baton of the conductor during performance also indicate this, but only after the hard work of rehearsal has been accomplished.
Click to expand...
I did not know all of that! Thanks. 👍
 
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