Confessing child molestation

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Is ‘cannonize’ the term for discipline in catholicism?? Sorry…I just need a clarification once…
Not quite.😉 Canonization is the process of naming a person a saint. And since that is done after a person is dead, discipline wouldn’t have much value!
there’s cannon law…which is church law…
Right.
excommunication is when someone’s booted out of the church…
No, excommunication means that the person is no longer in communion with the Church. Specifically, it means that until a full, complete confession is made, that person cannot participate in any sacraments (other than penance, of course). They are still members of the Church, just not in good standing.

Peace

Tim
 
……As I noted in another post, I am not an expert by any means on canon law and readily admit that I could be wrong. I have posted a question to Fr. Serpa regarding this so I am interested to hear what he has to say. I am going to ask my pastor as well.

Peace

Tim
I’m going to discuss this with one of our Priests today too. He wasn’t involved with the scenario I wrote about (this was several years ago-in another state). I heard the story 2nd hand from the wife. She was hurt, and told me as SHE saw it-or how it was told to her?

I should’ve known what I was talking about-when I wrote. I apologize. Be back soon (afternoon).

+Pax, -Dawn

PS My point is/was that absolution isn’t automatic. I’ve never had it withheld from me, nor do I know anyone personally who has told me it was withheld from them.

I have read where St. Padre Pio would send penitents out-and give them something to do. Like a particular woman he told to pray the Stations of the Cross. Back the next day, she couldn’t remember what he knew-to confess, so he had her go back out and pray the Stations of the Cross (without giving her absolution). Eventually, I think he had to tell her. She had had an abortion, and he could hear her child in his head.

She had forgotten.
 
Is ‘cannonize’ the term for discipline in catholicism?? Sorry…I just need a clarification once…

there’s cannon law…which is church law…

excommunication is when someone’s booted out of the church…

and to ‘cannonize’ someone is to???
Cannonize is to make declair a deceased person a Saint. (Worthy of His Special Love). All of us on earth can learn from the life of the Saint (they’re declared to be in Heaven).
Beatification is the first step->when they are called “Blessed.”

Discipline-is what we do when we control ourselves.

Penance/Reconciliation/Confession-Is where we go to the Priest, confess our sins and reconcile with God. The Priest gives absolution-and the sin exists no more. The Priest usually gives a Penance—an act or prayers for his giving the absolution.

Now, we need to go out into the world and remove the stain of that forgiven sin. We need to “make up” to the person we hurt or to God for the hurt we have done to Him. You will hear today, a lot of prominent Priests calling for Penance! Offer your joys, works, sufferings and prayers each day to God. If you are in a hurry, we learned as a child to say 5 words: “All for You, my God.”

In the old days, before Vatican II, under the Baltimore Catechism (for example) you might read some old prayer books, etc. that read by a prayer: 30 days in Purgatory -or- 1 year in Purgatory -or- 5 years in Purgatory. The Church now leaves the indulgence (partial) up to God. (There are no days and nights in Purgatory-just here on earth). <-If we die and haven’t made up for the “stain” of forgiven sins, that’s what Purgatory is for. Purifying. A great Grace from God. Without it, Heaven would not be (very) populated…

Plenary indulgence means complete remission of the stain. Die then, and no Purgatory. Although St. Padre Pio said all have to pass through the Purifying Flame.

Welcome Back.
+Peace Be With You.
-Dawn
 
Cannonize is to make declair a deceased person a Saint. (Worthy of His Special Love). All of us on earth can learn from the life of the Saint (they’re declared to be in Heaven).
Beatification is the first step->when they are called “Blessed.”

Discipline-is what we do when we control ourselves.

Penance/Reconciliation/Confession-Is where we go to the Priest, confess our sins and reconcile with God. The Priest gives absolution-and the sin exists no more. The Priest usually gives a Penance—an act or prayers for his giving the absolution.

Now, we need to go out into the world and remove the stain of that forgiven sin. We need to “make up” to the person we hurt or to God for the hurt we have done to Him. You will hear today, a lot of prominent Priests calling for Penance! Offer your joys, works, sufferings and prayers each day to God. If you are in a hurry, we learned as a child to say 5 words: “All for You, my God.”

In the old days, before Vatican II, under the Baltimore Catechism (for example) you might read some old prayer books, etc. that read by a prayer: 30 days in Purgatory -or- 1 year in Purgatory -or- 5 years in Purgatory. The Church now leaves the indulgence (partial) up to God. (There are no days and nights in Purgatory-just here on earth). <-If we die and haven’t made up for the “stain” of forgiven sins, that’s what Purgatory is for. Purifying. A great Grace from God. Without it, Heaven would not be (very) populated…

Plenary indulgence means complete remission of the stain. Die then, and no Purgatory. Although St. Padre Pio said all have to pass through the Purifying Flame.

Welcome Back.
+Peace Be With You.
-Dawn
Dawn

We are mixing so many things in this approach. The Priest is acting Persona Christy so he really does not control absolution. Penance and restitution are requirements of sin however they are on the pennant not the Priest. A priest can and should with hold absolution when the pennant is not in communion with the church. Absolution can be and is often invalid which is called attrition but again that is on the pennant not the priest. If the pennant is truly sorry and comes back in communion it is called contrition. The act of contrition prayer is only to help focus the pennant; it is not in and of itself a free pass. Maybe this is part of what confused the OP.

Hope that helps
 
Even the state recognizes that confession is so private that it is not subject to mandatory reporting laws regarding child abuse.

This is from California’s mandatory reporting law source]:

(d) (1) A clergy member who acquires knowledge or a reasonable suspicion of child abuse or neglect during a penitential communication is not subject to subdivision (a). For the purposes of this subdivision, “penitential communication” means a communication, intended to be in confidence, including, but not limited to, a sacramental confession, made to a clergy member who, in the course of the discipline or practice of his or her church, denomination, or organization, is authorized or accustomed to hear those communications, and under the discipline, tenets, customs, or practices of his or her church, denomination, or organization, has a duty to keep those communications secret.
 
Dawn

We are mixing so many things in this approach. The Priest is acting Persona Christy so he really does not control absolution. Penance and restitution are requirements of sin however they are on the pennant not the Priest. A priest can and should with hold absolution when the pennant is not in communion with the church. Absolution can be and is often invalid which is called attrition but again that is on the pennant not the priest. If the pennant is truly sorry and comes back in communion it is called contrition. The act of contrition prayer is only to help focus the pennant; it is not in and of itself a free pass. Maybe this is part of what confused the OP.

Hope that helps
It does. Thank you. OP?

I spoke with one of our Priests this afternoon. I must be balled up. 🤷 I need to take time with him regarding this. I was involved with last year’s RCIA (not me-I was helping another), and we went down this road before.

This afternoon, he explained to me that the Priest would give absolution if the penitent is in the confessional-and is repentant. I asked what about-for instance-the child molester who would continue if they didn’t receive help. He said that would be made part of the penance.

Where I’m balled up is the (was the) penance. I thought that was for the forgiveness of the sin(s). Then reparation would have to be made-and that was between the person & God (partial/plenary indulgences).

Sorry OP for getting off topic. I will bow out (gracefully, I hope)…
+Peace Be With You.
-Dawn
 
This may be of interest to the OP…

I have a friend of some thirty years, a missionary priest, ordained in 1960, who has heard confessions all over the world. He once told me that the only sin he has never heard is of child molestation. I asked him why he thought this was so and he said that he believed it was because molesters are usually unable to see anything seriously morally wrong in what they’re doing.

Not sure I can fully accept that, but my friend’s :twocents:
 
you know yellow belle, i absolutely believe that…or maybe they bury the memory away so they dont have to deal with it…thats got to be a hard thing to have to face…

but question on the penance, involving seeking help…does that, you think, break confidentiality?

Like in the example above, a man commits adultery, priest witholds absolution until he confesses to wife…we all agreed that would be some sort of breach of confidentiality right??

his absolution depending on it…if he seeks help, doesnt he have to likewise publicly (or at least to the organization, or whoever it is he seeks counsel from) confess his problem??
 
I dont think that telling the guy that he had to confess to his wife would have been a betrayal of confidence…and withholding the absolution is like, motivation isnt it?? Theres a post right now, in a forum on this site…i commented on it a couple days ago…someone was saying that she went to confession, and confessed a sin that they had confessed several times before (apparently this person is having an issue with the temptation)…the priest asked if he was ever going to do it again…and they replied ’ i dont want to, and i am tryin not to, but…its hard’ the priest withheld absolution…well i guess that person cant par-take in the eucharist? i believe it is?? until they have that absolution…and the person was saying it wasnt fair because if he really truly is sorry each and every time, but…he didnt want to say yes, he’d stop, because he cant predict the future and didnt want to lie…

so i think withholding absolution isnt something out of the ordinary…and if marriage is such a holy sacrement, and those two people REALLY TRULY are UNITED as ONE…then how can you absolve him without including her?? isnt the marriage like, tainted?? idk…its like grey area…

but those are adults…and were talking about children…if a priest really would just, absolve a child molester…and never tell the authorities…oh well one could just as easily say that one could get away with murder in the catholic church…
Making someone betray THEMSELVES as a condition of absolution is just as much a violation of the seal as for the priest to directly betray them.

Either way the point and spirit of the seal is broken, which is COMPLETE anonymity (hence the screen!) and people who hear of the story (not all, but many) will doubtless be turned away from confession by it, which makes such actions the opposite of being a good and proper pastor.
 
you know yellow belle, i absolutely believe that…or maybe they bury the memory away so they dont have to deal with it…thats got to be a hard thing to have to face…

but question on the penance, involving seeking help…does that, you think, break confidentiality?

Like in the example above, a man commits adultery, priest witholds absolution until he confesses to wife…we all agreed that would be some sort of breach of confidentiality right??

his absolution depending on it…if he seeks help, doesnt he have to likewise publicly (or at least to the organization, or whoever it is he seeks counsel from) confess his problem??
The difference is that in the molester’s case he’s already been forgiven and received absolution. The priest gave him the penance of ‘getting help’. Absolution will not be nullified if he opts NOT to get the help the priest told him to just as our absolution will not be nullified if we don’t say the decade of the rosary we were given as a penance.
 
Making someone betray THEMSELVES as a condition of absolution is just as much a violation of the seal as for the priest to directly betray them.

.
Forcing them to reveal themselves as the penance would be the same thing - cannot be done.

This is where it seems hard, but, also makes us understand the great mercy and forgivness of God. ANY sin can be forgiven if we repent.
 


So…child molestation…if someone goes to confession and confesses they have committed such a thing…and they repent…are they forgiven???

thats the big question for me…does God really forgive child molesters???

and as for the Priest…is he obligated to inform the authorities?? What if the act occured over 20 years ago?
  1. Any sin can be forgiven upon repentance. One of the objective signs of repentance is going to confession about it.
  2. Why should God NOT forgive child molestors? Isn’t He in the sin-forgiving business? Your own sins might be not as disreputable, but does that keep them from being any less disastrous?
  3. A priest is bound to keep the seal of confession, even unto death. Period.
He might well advise such a penitent to seek treament, and even turn himself in to the authorities as a penance. But he MAY not tell anyone else.

Should he violate the seal of confession, he damns his own soul under an excommunication that I think only the Pope can loose.

This is one of the plot elements in the movie PRIEST, btw.
 
Let us consider the case of Conan Wayne Hale. This is a description of the crimes of which he was convicted, as posted on a State of Oregon web site:
“In December 1995, over the course of about two weeks, Conan Hale and Jonathan Susbauer committed two burglaries, sexually assaulted a young couple, and murdered three teenagers in a wooded area outside Eugene, Oregon. Hale later was charged with aggravated murder and various other offenses in connection with those crimes. The jury found Hale guilty of most of the crimes charged, including 13 counts of aggravated murder, and the trial court sentenced him to death. On review, Hale raised multiple assignments of error regarding pretrial rulings and the guilt and penalty phases of his trial. In a unanimous opinion, the Supreme Court affirmed seven of the aggravated murder convictions and the sentences of death thereon, and it reversed six of the aggravated murder convictions and vacated the sentences of death on those convictions.”

Obviously, these crimes are worse than those in the scenario of the OP.

You may recognize the man’s name. He was accused of these crimes and incarcerated in the Lane County Jail in Eugene, Oregon, where his confession was later heard by a certain Fr. Timothy Mockaitis. Unbeknowst to Fr. Mockaitis, where the confession was secretly taped by the sheriff of the jail, with the intention of using the tape as evidence at trial.

The Archdiocese of Portland and Fr. Mockaitis fought to have the tape destroyed. In a statement to a judge in the case, a lawyer for the Archdiocese stated:

"It is allowed under canon law, the rule which governs the Roman Catholic Church, for a penitent to speak outside the sealed confession as to what occurred; however, the penitent cannot release the priest from his inability of testifying in church court nor in civil court about what occurred within the context of a conversation between himself and any particular penitent."

Under no circumstances may a priest disclose what is revealed to him in confession. Period. He most absolutely cannot tell the police or a judge!! It is the position of the Church that it would be a violation of his right to exercise his religion to make any law compelling a priest to break the seal of confession for any reason. If such a law existed, a priest would be morally bound to ignore it. We may not even ask a priest to reveal something about our own confessions to a third party. It is strictly forbidden.

Among the religious bodies that contributed friend of the court briefs in support of the Church’s position on the matter were the American Jewish Congress, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Baptist Joint Committee of Public Affairs, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Commission on Social Action of Reform Judaism, the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA), and the Christian Legal Society, not to mention, of course, the US Council of Catholic Bishops. IOW, the Catholic Church is not alone in believing that a penitent ought to be able to expect absolute confidentiality in this case.

I have heard Fr. Mockaitis speak on the matter, and he was deeply grieved that it was even implied that he might ever break the seal of confession for any reason whatsoever. There was no indication whatsoever that even a multiple-murderer, if he is contrite, might not receive absolution.

I cannot find it in Fr. Mockaitis’ book, but if memory serves correctly, during the time when the Polish government started bugging the confessionals in Poland, under the suspicion that the Poles were using priests to send secret messages, the priests were given the authority to absolve sins that were not verbalized to them! So sacred is the seal that it was preferable to absolve a sin, not knowing what the sin was, than to risk having the seal violated.

Keep in mind, though: Being absolved of a sin removes any eternal punishment due to the sin (keeps the penitent out of Hell) but does NOT necessarily remove all temporal punishment (the rehabilitating pains of Purgatory). The penance given by the priest in the Sacrament of Penance is not guaranteed to remove all temporal punishment, either.
 
The church deals in absolutes because God knows how human beings can be.

The seal of the confessional must apply for ALL sins. At different points in human history, different sins were seen as worse then others. So we couldn’t all agree on what could be divulged in any event.

Ok, today we say it’s ok to divulge child molestation.
Next year, we allow divulging murder.
The year after that we allow divulging adultery.

Where would it end?
 
Does this totally scare the daylights outta anybody else??? I agree with the latter that child perversion is more like a disease…you dont do it once and say your sorry and its fixed…thats like a mental disorder or something…

that really is perplexing me betsy…and its making me worry…my daughter goes to church with me…what if she was molested, and the guy confessed about it, and I was never told?? how could i trust that priest??? doesnt he have to look out for the safety and best interest of ALL of his parish?? :confused:

big time :eek:

i think it should be some sort of social responsiblity to report it…right?? wow thats crazy…i never knew that…guess just another reason to keep your kid even closer to your side 😦
The best way to look out for the safety and best interest of ALL his parish is to follow the orders of God.

Are we to start questioning God and decide that our way of doing business is better than his? Isn’t that how the human race got into sin in the first place? How do we know better then God?

Also, such a person who is confessing it IS taking the first step in reporting it and seeking help. Part of the definition of penitent. When I confessed suicidal thoughts, part of my penance was to follow the orders of my psychologist. The priest, as my religious superior, was giving me a penance that also lead to improve my mental well being.

I have 5 kids (one already a saint), so 4 living. If God says that this is the way the Church is to be run, then I’ll leave it up to his judgement.

Better that someone who molests one of my children repent and end up in Heaven then not repent out of fear of going to confession and end up in Hell.

But for the grace of God there go I.
 
Every repentant sinner is forgiven. Reprobates, though, do not accept God’s Mercy, so they are not forgiven, for forgiveness is a gift of God’s Mercy.

Priests are forbidden from telling about people’s sins. But they are obligated to advice criminals to turn themselves in.
 
The church deals in absolutes because God knows how human beings can be.

The seal of the confessional must apply for ALL sins. At different points in human history, different sins were seen as worse then others. So we couldn’t all agree on what could be divulged in any event.

Ok, today we say it’s ok to divulge child molestation.
Next year, we allow divulging murder.
The year after that we allow divulging adultery.

Where would it end?
There was a time in Church history when the Sacrament of Penance was available once in a lifetime, it was reserved for serious sins only, and confession was in front of the entire church. Penance was lengthy, months or even years, and also public.

In spite of the heightened deterrent effect (yikes!!), don’t think we want to go back to that.
 
Making someone betray THEMSELVES as a condition of absolution is just as much a violation of the seal as for the priest to directly betray them.

Either way the point and spirit of the seal is broken, which is COMPLETE anonymity (hence the screen!) and people who hear of the story (not all, but many) will doubtless be turned away from confession by it, which makes such actions the opposite of being a good and proper pastor.
No, it is not. Conditioning or withholding absolution contingent on a further act of a penitent (specifically poisoners confessing to poison, murderers turning themselves in, or more pertinent to this thread, paedophiles confessing or seeking therapy, etc., etc. ) has a long tradition in moral and canonical theology. You can find such courses of action suggested in old moral theology textbooks (e.g. Theologia Moralis by St. Alphonsus, or Genicot’s Casus conscientiae. For English works, you might try Woywood).

The seal is only broken if the penitent confesses and the priest, by word or deed, reveals it.
 
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