Confused-Sedevecantism

[SheepsCousin]

So I’ve been looking into Sedevecantism and I’m very confused still. So here are some arguments for it:

The Pope (and previous popes) are a heretic so can’t be a Pope (popes can’t be heretics). Also the claim that the seat of Rome is the chair of the anti-Christ concern me.

Post Vatican 2 church is counter-church: some saints have prophesied something like this happening. Saying that there would be so little in the church the religion would only be practiced on farms etc. And prophecising a new church coming about.

If Vatican 2 is not inspired (presupposing Vatican 2 isn’t inspired for this) would that mean the church wasn’t inspired?

Another question: If Sedevecantism is true then would all of the ordinations be invalid?

I have more problems/arguments that I can’t think of off the top of my head but these are a good start. I am trying very hard to find the right religion right now. I am a Catholic but I’m questioning my religion. I think Christianity is true and I would lean towards Catholicism over Protestantism and Orthodoxy but Sedevecantism is making me really question mainstream Catholicism.

And please don’t make an argument along the lines of: ‘God wouldn’t abandon his church.’ The claim is that the Sedevecantists’ Church is the real Church not that God abandoned the church.

 

[Montrose]

So I’ve been looking into Sedevecantism and I’m very confused still. So here are some arguments for it:

The Pope (and previous popes) are a heretic so can’t be a Pope (popes can’t be heretics). Also the claim that the seat of Rome is the chair of the anti-Christ concern me.

Post Vatican 2 church is counter-church: some saints have prophesied something like this happening. Saying that there would be so little in the church the religion would only be practiced on farms etc. And prophecising a new church coming about.

If Vatican 2 is not inspired (presupposing Vatican 2 isn’t inspired for this) would that mean the church wasn’t inspired?

Another question: If Sedevecantism is true then would all of the ordinations be invalid?

I have more problems/arguments that I can’t think of off the top of my head but these are a good start. I am trying very hard to find the right religion right now. I am a Catholic but I’m questioning my religion. I think Christianity is true and I would lean towards Catholicism over Protestantism and Orthodoxy but Sedevecantism is making me really question mainstream Catholicism.

And please don’t make an argument along the lines of: ‘God wouldn’t abandon his church.’ The claim is that the Sedevecantists’ Church is the real Church not that God abandoned the church.

Don’t be confused. It is false and a heresy.

The Problem with Sedevacantism | Catholic Answers Video

Why Sedevacantism is False | Catholic Answers Video

 

[Tis_Bearself]

And please don’t make an argument along the lines of: ‘God wouldn’t abandon his church.’ The claim is that the Sedevecantists’ Church is the real Church not that God abandoned the church.

This is the exact same claim that every other heretical breakaway group has used for hundreds of years.

There’s nothing distinguishing this group from dozens of other non-Catholic churches claiming to be God’s true church.

 

[adamhovey1988]

popes can’t be heretics

Peter denied Jesus three times, so I am having a hard time believing that one. They can not, as dogma, teach heresy.

Also the claim that the seat of Rome is the chair of the anti-Christ concern me.

The claim is untrue.

some saints have prophesied

Too vague to elaborate

And please don’t make an argument along the lines of: ‘God wouldn’t abandon his church.’ The claim is that the Sedevecantists’ Church is the real Church not that God abandoned the church.

Why can’t the sedes agree with each other, then?

 

[adamhovey1988]

Yeah, Catholic Answers YouTube just put up an excellent talk Rod Bennett gave pertaining to what you said here. I think the OP would do well to watch it.

 

[SheepsCousin]

This is the exact same claim that every other heretical breakaway group has used for hundreds of years.

There’s nothing distinguishing this group from dozens of other non-Catholic churches claiming to be God’s true church.

This isn’t true, a lot of Protestant denominations don’t claim they are the church Jesus set up.

The thing that distinguishes the Sedevecantists is that they claim to be THE CATHOLIC Church.

SheepsCousin:

So I’ve been looking into Sedevecantism and I’m very confused still. So here are some arguments for it:

The Pope (and previous popes) are a heretic so can’t be a Pope (popes can’t be heretics). Also the claim that the seat of Rome is the chair of the anti-Christ concern me.

Post Vatican 2 church is counter-church: some saints have prophesied something like this happening. Saying that there would be so little in the church the religion would only be practiced on farms etc. And prophecising a new church coming about.

If Vatican 2 is not inspired (presupposing Vatican 2 isn’t inspired for this) would that mean the church wasn’t inspired?

Another question: If Sedevecantism is true then would all of the ordinations be invalid?

I have more problems/arguments that I can’t think of off the top of my head but these are a good start. I am trying very hard to find the right religion right now. I am a Catholic but I’m questioning my religion. I think Christianity is true and I would lean towards Catholicism over Protestantism and Orthodoxy but Sedevecantism is making me really question mainstream Catholicism.

And please don’t make an argument along the lines of: ‘God wouldn’t abandon his church.’ The claim is that the Sedevecantists’ Church is the real Church not that God abandoned the church.

Don’t be confused. It is false and a heresy.

Catholic Answers

The Problem with Sedevacantism​

Tim Staples explains what Sedevacantism is and why i…

Catholic Answers

Why Sedevacantism is False​

…

I saw these videos and they are pretty much straw man attacks. They basically say the exact argument that I mentioned at the end

 

[Tis_Bearself]

This isn’t true, a lot of Protestant denominations don’t claim they are the church Jesus set up.

And a lot of them do.

 

[SheepsCousin]

And a lot of them do.

Okay but this is besides the point. The only two other churches that really claim to be the original Catholic Church are the Sedevecantists and you could maybe say the Orthodox as well. I’m not an Orthodox becasue they allow divorce and contraceptives to be used and I don’t think they’re the original church. The Sedevecantists claim there was an apostasy and that we are a counter church. This has greatly confused me and a lot of Catholics seem to not have a great answer to it under than: ‘oh they’re just schismatics, ignore them!’. I’m looking for points against the claim but no one seems to have any GOOD ones.

I’m trying to find the right answer but I’m not getting very far.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m trying to find the right answer but I’m not getting very far.

You’re not getting very far because most of us here believe Sedevacantism is bunk and wouldn’t even give it the time of day as it is against our Pope and our Church, and you have rejected the good apologetics arguments people have presented to you.

The real question is why you as a Catholic are allowing yourself to be led astray by those who teach against the Church.

 

[whatistrue]

I’m trying to find the right answer but I’m not getting very far.

You aren’t getting very far because you are rejecting a priori the correct and valid arguments. Why is that?

 

[whatistrue]

I’m rejecting the arguments becasue I don’t believe them to be correct nor do they seem to have any merit.

The argument can be summed up as “Jesus promised that the Church would not be defeated”. So if you think that the Church Jesus founded failed then you think Jesus was either mistaken or lying. Sorry, I fail to see any lack of merit or incorrectness there.

I’m not trying to question Christ’s church just trying to find what it is.

And you were reminded of what it is, but seem to persist in not accepting plain truth. So be it. The state of your soul is on you. Muting thread now to preserve my equilibrium.

 

[SheepsCousin]

Sorry, I fail to see any lack of merit or incorrectness there.

And you were reminded of what it is, but seem to persist in not accepting plain truth. So be it. The state of your soul is on you. Muting thread now to preserve my equilibrium.

I have never said I do not accept the church but I am wondering of its validity as the church. I’m not saying hell prevailed against the church or it was defeated but am contemplating what the true Church is. You could use the same argument by saying there are more non Catholics than Catholics so it was defeated. If the true Church is the Sedevecantists Church that doesnt mean hell prevailed against it.

I’m considering what the real church is but I haven’t really got a clear answer yet. Although I still do believe the Catholic Church is true but I am just confused

 

[Maximian]

The logic of sedevacantism depends on the idea that a Pope can do no wrong (ultramontanism). So ironically the most ardent opponents of Francis are almost in agreement with his most ardent supporters - only reaching different conclusions.

 

[TheLittleLady]

This isn’t true, a lot of Protestant denominations don’t claim they are the church Jesus set up.

Would you give me a place to begin researching these denominations?

Sedevacantists are their own kind of protestants

 

[SheepsCousin]

Would you give me a place to begin researching these denominations?

Its a common Protestant idea that Jesus didn’t set up a church but his church is just the people who follow him in general. I’m not going to go into more detail about this as it is a very annoying red herring.

 

[vsedriver]

I’m considering what the real church is but I haven’t really got a clear answer yet. Although I still do believe the Catholic Church is true but I am just confused

Jesus is a Jewish King. In the OT when the king was away he gave his chief steward the keys to his kingdom. If the chief steward died he was replaced by another man but there was always a chief steward for the kingdom.

Jesus gave the keys to Peter. Every successor of Peter is also a steward of Christ’s Kingdom. If there is no chief steward than the kingdom has fallen. Jesus promised that his ‘kingdom’ which is the church will not fall.

Therefore if your church has no successor of Peter, then it is NOT the one, true, holy and apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ.

The sede’s have no successor of Peter.

 

[SheepsCousin]

Okay that is probably the best point I’ve seen so far (and respectful), thank you for that. God bless you.

 

[Montrose]

If the true Church is the Sedevecantists Church that doesnt mean hell prevailed against it.

There is no Sedevacantist Church. There is a bunch of heretics who are in a state of mortal sin.
Why would you be so gullible as to give any credibility to them. They are false.
The Catholic Church is the one true Church.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

The Pope (and previous popes) are a heretic so can’t be a Pope (popes can’t be heretics).

First of all, how do you know the Pope is a heretic? God alone knows his mind and heart.

If Vatican 2 is not inspired (presupposing Vatican 2 isn’t inspired for this) would that mean the church wasn’t inspired?

According to Pope John XXIII (who opened the Council) and Cardinal Felici (at the closing of the Council), Vatican II was a pastoral council. It did not define any dogmas like past Councils but reiterated teachings from previous dogmatic councils (e.g. Trent) when necessary.

Inspiration applies to Holy Scripture, not councils. The Holy Spirit inspired the writers of Holy Scripture (e.g. St. Luke, St. Paul etc) and kept them free from error when they wrote Scripture.

I am trying very hard to find the right religion right now.

Why?

I am a Catholic but I’m questioning my religion. I think Christianity is true and I would lean towards Catholicism over Protestantism and Orthodoxy but Sedevecantism is making me really question mainstream Catholicism.

There’s an excellent book which I highly recommend. It’s called True or False Pope? A Refutation of Sedevacantism and Other Errors by John Salza and Robert Siscoe.

The authors use the Sedevacantists’ own literature showing how Sedevacantism is FALSE.

They have their own website where you can get the book. It’s a very big volume but is well worth reading.

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

If you had to make a choice right now, like you are going to die in 5 minutes which would you choose? Why?

For me, I would choose the pure 2000 year old Vanilla flavored Catholicism. Why? Because of just that, it hasn’t failed and I trust Jesus.