Confusing our Brethren and burdening ourselves, have we gone too far?

[KatholikosMercy]

I feel the efficacy of apologetics are lost if they are argued beyond the charitable example of Jesus. It is true that Jesus rebuked the money changers but he also inspired Paul to say if your attempts to bring a soul to the Lord fail then let them be damned. Jesus I trust in you.

1.) If we must spend a whole year to educate before being baptized or converted and so many doctrines cause confusion and even in some cases push away among those who believe haven’t we gone too far with traditions?

I find I must spend much more effort with apologetics than actually passing the message of the Gospel and it just seems to me that the simplicity of Gods message is hindered by so many traditions. I think the reformation itself is evidence of this.

2.) If this is the case then how do we get the focus away from explaining all the traditions and perceived hypocrisy and back onto God as it belongs?

3.) Also has anyone anywhere taken the absolute truths of all world religions and combined them in any writings for the church that anyone is aware of?

What I am looking for is a document that starts with what God holds true, from Judaism, Catholicism, Pentecostalism, and Islam, etc to include all religions the church has recognized as in the legitimate pursuit of salvation.

4.) If there is some element of truth in all religions that seek the one true God then shouldn’t we strive in the spirit of Ecumenicism to find that common truth and make that our focus for all men as the path to our ultimate unity in God and disregard what divides us only saving the wisdom of the Holy Spirit which protects us?

I feel we have to get beyond who is wrong or rite.

I think it may be possible that there are elements of Gods truth in all religions that have in certain ways escaped all but their own sect.
If this is the case it may well be that the complete truth of God lies not in any one institution alone but rather in our Unity as Gods children.
In any event, in order to edify our brethren in unity we mustn’t focus on what divides us but rather only focus on what unifies in love and trust in one God and then rely on the intercession of our Blessed Mother Mary, the Angels and Saints and all the wisdom of the Holy Spirit we can muster.

In that spirit it is my aim to isolate the truths of God from all religions and then place that which divides us at the feet of Mary so that she may crush it.

Peace, Humilty and Love,

Alan.
www.myspace.com/hourofmercy

 

[Verbum]

Hi Katholikos,

We know that it is possible for men to know God through reason. Knowing Him, and acknowledging that He is the Creator of all things, we must then conclude that he created us for a purpose and that we must try to fulfil that purpose by our thoughts and actions.

This is natural religion.

If all religions were natural religion then it would make sense to look for truth in all of them so that we might incorporate them in our religious practice.

But it so happened that God has intervened. He revealed to us how he wanted us to worship Him. He first talked to the Jews and then to all men telling them to be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. He told us he would be with us until the end of time. The Catholic Church holds the fullness of his message.

Because God intervened and told us what He wanted, then we must obey that wish.

Still he wants us to behave with charity to all men. It is charitable behavior not to condemn as pagan or heretical behaviors and doctrines that do in fact honor God. It is also charitable behavior to unite with men of good will to help those in need. This is how we should cooperate with members of other religions.

Verbum

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Hello Verbum,

I find nothing wrong in anything you have said.

However, I also find no point in it. I guess I am not sure what you are trying to tell me.

If you can be more clear and direct it would be helpful. Please keep in mind my agenda is to gain sould for Jesus and to imporve in my ability to bring them home to his church.

I in no way negate one iota of truth in the Chruch in that process although there are times when I must feed that truth so gently that tradition cannot enter into it so that our pearls wont be trampled.

I should add the motivting factor for my questions in this thread is the open dialogue I maintain with Muslims and probably my lack of patience as well.

The resources available for how we should proceed in apologetics with Islam is lacking and what I wish to edify among the faithful.

Bringing the truth to Islam is more difficult that teaching a child in that the only truth we share is in One True Allah and the Virgin Birth or Mary. In and of itself wouldnt be as difficult if the Muslim didn’t have an agenda I have found can often be contrary to the message and peace of Jesus.

If you have any advice on or know of resources of apologetics in the Quran and Hadiths I would be greatful.

Thanks,

Peace, Humility and Love,

Alan.

 

[The_Augustinian]

Dear Alan,

You are doing the Lord’s work, and you should be proud of that. I understand your concern–the Faith may be too complicated, too confusing for many. When we do apologetics we might end up trying to claim for ourselves the ability to “bring” souls to Jesus, as if our arguments could grant eternal life!

Certainly there is a place for argument, but for many it can be counterproductive. I’ve been in many an argument before, and it hasn’t changed a soul, but perhaps made things even worse. I have to bear that responsibility. People who do apologetics should do the same.

That being said, I don’t think the traditions of the Church themselves get in the way of the Gospel message. However, many may not be ready for them. Someone–whether Belloc or Chesterton, I do not know–once compared the Catholic Church to a good steak. St. Paul tells us that we Christians are ready for the meat after having the milk. The richness of the Tradition is the meat, the initial message of the Gospel is the milk. We ought to present the milk first, and then gradually lead them towards solid food.

 

[trogiah]

I feel the efficacy of apologetics are lost if they are argued beyond the charitable example of Jesus. It is true that Jesus rebuked the money changers but he also inspired Paul to say if your attempts to bring a soul to the Lord fail then let them be damned. Jesus I trust in you.

You ask some far reaching questions. I believe it is always worth looking at the example and words of Jesus to answer them.

I think it is worth noting that Jesus’s specific purpose in throwing out the money changers was not, at that particular moment, to win over their hearts. He was simply trying to clean up his Father’s house.

Jesus told his disciples to spread the word that "the reign of God is at hand. He didn’t promise that every one would listen to them and in fact gave specific instructions for what to do when people did listen and what to do when they didn’t.

Any effort to share the good news of God’s kingdom should remain open to the possibility that the message might not be accepted.

Good luck

Jim

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Thank you for your reply Jim.

I find St Paul a great model in as your analogy said, feeding the milk.

It is my aim to discover if there is certain Milk to bottle feed our disjointed Brethren.
The more I pray for wisdom on this very issue the more I am led back to Mary as the answer.

As my statements earlier ask, I seek apologetics in regard to the Quran and Hadiths that may support our position on the role of Mary to argue the divinity of Jesus to Muslims and also apologetics that support the Holy Spirit in which I can defend the doctrine of the Trinity.

It is becoming apparent that these apologetics may not exist, or I just am not locating them.

In any event I may be on the road to developing them myself.
I think I may recently have had a breakthrough in that I have become aware of a passage in the Quran that speaks of the Spirit of God.

I have based off this for my Muslim friend the fact that if the Quran has admitted that God has a Spirit then there is case for God as one being as they believe to at least be in two persons. I await a reply.

The biggest stumbling block I encounter with the Muslims is the old Arian heresy that Jesus isn’t divine.

However the greatest unity is extreme faith in the same One True God and like belief in the virgin birth of Jesus which needs to be expounded and build upon.

They also argue the validity of the Biblical scripture which should be easy enough to refute by a good apologist who knows the Quran.

One has to keep in mind these things must be refuted with what they hold dear and that is the Quran itself.
They are not going to take much stock in what the Bible says.

We need an organized approach to Muslim apologetics preferably from someone who knows the Quran well enough to say this is what the Bible is saying also or this is what it should be interpreted as and why.

If anyone reading this is aware of a body of such work I would be greatly appreciative if you would point me to it or others similarly interested in building it.

I am a novice apologist at best. Where are all the college apologists out there when you need them?

Peace be upon you.

Alan.

 

[Liberian]

Alan,

Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruitful time here.

As a couple of others have already said, you raise some far-reaching questions here. It occurs to me that you might be comparing the process of joining the Catholic Church with the process of joining a Fundamentalist church.

Your first point, that “the efficacy of apologetics are lost if they are argued beyond the charitable example of Jesus,” is largely true. People are generally not convinced by argument; Archbishop Sheen, I think, was the one who said “Win the argument, lose the soul.” The purpose of apologetics is to show that the Catholic faith is reasonable; to convince somebody that it is true is the work of the Holy Spirit.

I1.) If we must spend a whole year to educate before being baptized or converted and so many doctrines cause confusion and even in some cases push away among those who believe haven’t we gone too far with traditions?

No. It’s sort of a “truth in advertising.” The Catholic Church teaches what she teaches because it’s true, not because she wants to. The Church does not make traditions up; she figures them out from what has been revealed to her, usually in response to some heresy that makes it necessary to clarify the truth.

The primary difference here is that the convert to the Catholic Church spends a year learning the teachings before he joins; a Fundamentalist church will sign the convert up first and then explain to him what they teach.

3.) Also has anyone anywhere taken the absolute truths of all world religions and combined them in any writings for the church that anyone is aware of?

C.S. Lewis compiled a list of moral teachings from various religions (he called it “the Tao”) as an appendix to one of his books, The Abolition of Man, I think. That is at least part of what you are looking for, although it certainly isn’t the whole thing. The problem is that (at least in teachings regarding the nature of God) the “absolute truths” of one religion contradict those of another. Islam is simply wrong regarding the Trinity and the Incarnation.

4.) If there is some element of truth in all religions that seek the one true God then shouldn’t we strive in the spirit of Ecumenicism to find that common truth and make that our focus for all men as the path to our ultimate unity in God and disregard what divides us only saving the wisdom of the Holy Spirit which protects us?

I feel we have to get beyond who is wrong or rite.

Unfortunately that simply doesn’t work. God revealed Himself in part to many peoples, but only Christianity has the fullness of God’s self-revelation. And among the Christian groups, the Protestants and Evangelicals have turned away from parts of the truth. Where other religions disagree with Catholicism, they are simply wrong, and there is no getting around it. Certainly there are things we can learn from other groups–the zeal of the Baptists for the Bible is admirable and worthy of imitation–but we cannot pretend that “all faiths are equally valid.” It simply isn’t so.

In any event, in order to edify our brethren in unity we mustn’t focus on what divides us but rather only focus on what unifies in love and trust in one God and then rely on the intercession of our Blessed Mother Mary, the Angels and Saints and all the wisdom of the Holy Spirit we can muster.

In that spirit it is my aim to isolate the truths of God from all religions and then place that which divides us at the feet of Mary so that she may crush it. %between%

Let me give you a hearty AMEN, but I would also note that there are Evangelicals who will consign you to Hell for wanting to do that. It is unfortunate but sooner or later we will have to address our disagreements.

• Liberian

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruitful time here.

Thank you very much. I am learning allot already and feel much love and support here. I am starting to suspect that my questions are wrong but through them I will decern the answers I seek just the same.

I apologize in advance for being unable to pose my reply with quotes as it exceeded 6000 words and the limit assigned by the thread so I had to whittle it down to what follows.

It occurs to me that you might be comparing the process of joining the Catholic Church with the process of joining a Fundamentalist church.

That seems a simple task as compared to overcoming the disparity between Catholicism and Islam of which there seems to be little guidance available in comparison.

I wish to build this work for our Muslim brothers. There are additional problems though as there is an even greater disparity of cult and word.

I am wondering if I am even sewing a seed of faith in Muslim ground. I think that it is possible to find fertile ground of course and would depend on the specific Muslim and how God wished to manifest His will. The dialogue I currently am engaged in is far from fertile ground however it is being relayed to elders of Islam so there may be fruits that I will never see.

Any pursuit of peace and disregard of the agenda that has led to an endless jihad and terrorist extremists among Muslims is a worthy cause. One I feel we as Catholics are called to as there is an ever looming conflict between our two traditions. The work of our Pontiff should be evidence enough for us all.

I have a Muslim friend on the offensive who is asking questions and I have a prime opportunity to explain our faith to such a crucial person yet I personally lack the skill or wisdom of the Quran to feel confident in my own effectiveness. Maybe I need to look beyond this fact and simply continue to set the example. It was just that I felt there may be a better way.

In dealing with a fundamental christian it is easy to use logic and rational description of the scriptures because we share basically the same word. With Muslims the Quran and Hadiths are in opposition to our Bible as well as there is an underlying Muslim agenda.

Thought Lewis is a great novelist his writing carries no Nihil Obstat or Imprimatur so would not be as fruitful for apologetic work. Your mention of him though shows me that this approach toward what truths that may be found in other religions may be a wrong approach save for those that carry us along common ground with those with who we maintain a dialogue.

I agree there are elements of other religions that are truthful but in now way meant to imply they as a whole they were equally valid. That would be impossible. Let us not loose site here that my intent is dialogue with Muslims, not fundamentals or to pursue apologetics here with you.

This wouldn’t be the first time a separatist or Pentecostal would rebuke me. Lol. It matters not if they rebuke me but only our God. The modern reformists rebuke themselves when they fail to focus on Jesus and accept the rock on which he promised that evil would not prevail against.

I feel it necessary that I say I do not pretend to save any one - be they Protestant or Muslim. That is the Lords department completely. I only am a humble servant with a fire to be as wise as the Holy Spirit will allow in the work of dialogue to that end in the Lords service.

Islam is new to me as that should be apparent by my wriggling here. Addressing our disagreements is what I am doing my brother yet I believe one must first affirm commonalities. I am here for advice in my attempt to do that as pleasing to Jesus as possible and to make sure I never make divisions any worse but rather heal them though the power of the Holy Spirit and in the name of our Lord Jesus.

I already see that my initial post should have been more specific toward the Islamic tradition for which I seek assistance with.

I thank you just the same for you time, efforts and friendship.

Peace and may God bless and keep you always.

Alan.

 

[DonProfondo]

In and of itself wouldnt be as difficult if the Muslim didn’t have an agenda I have found can often be contrary to the message and peace of Jesus.

The Catholic Church was instituted by Christ for the sanctification of souls. Islam is a deception authored by Satan, for the obfuscation of truth. So yes, there’s a conflict.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

I found some anwers today actually. I simply put the word Islam in the search box at this site: theworkofgod.org/Library/Links/Apologtc/Aplg_frm.htm
and found all kinds of helpful things.

I have come to a determination that I cannot reason apologetics with a Muslim like I can a bible christian. First of all they don’t care what the Bible says and even negate its validity in the first place. If they were to ask questions of me about the faith that would be another story and then I would do my best to explain the Christian truth as I know it. You have to realize that in most Muslim countries its illegal to convert. They could and have actually faced death for conversion to Christ. The meaning of thier religion is Peace with GOD, not peace with men. I suppose that is how so many extremists are risen from it. We have our share on the Christian side as well. Just in a different manner.

Since beginning my dialogue with my first ever Muslim friend a few weeks back I have actually recently begun another. Both persons are very prayerful. The first man obviously has an agenda and seems much younger, and this last one seems convinced that there IS a Spirit of God so that may lead to a discussion of the Trinity at some point. That is in Gods hands.

My approach has changed from the start which was more militant at first. This approach, though it did warrant questions from my first Muslim friend they were more sarcastic and I feel only asked to refute our beliefs. Definitly not fertile ground there.

Through prayer about when these people shall become Christian the answer I get is that its in Marian hands and not for me to worry about. They are definitly included in Gods plan and for now it is only for me to talk to and be there for them. Nothing more it seems at the moment at least.

I appreciate the advice and help I have gotten here and would like to say I now feel more direction toward what the Lord is telling me in regard to our Muslim brethren.

Thanks again to those who took the time to respond.

Alan.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Katholikos,

However, I also find no point in it. I guess I am not sure what you are trying to tell me.

If you can be more clear and direct it would be helpful. Please keep in mind my agenda is to gain sould for Jesus and to imporve in my ability to bring them home to his church.
]

My post was more of a response on what seemed on your part a tendency to syncretism, that is getting the best from each religion in order to worship God better. My purpose was to state that, since God has told us how he should be worshipped, then we don’t have to look into other religions for this purpose.

I am very wary of Islam’s “veneration” of Jesus. If Jesus said that he was God when He wasn’t then he is a liar and a fraud. They try to get around that by arguing that Jesus did not claim to be God and that, if the scripture seem to say so, it’s because they have been corrupted.

On the other hand, if Jesus is God then Mohammed is a liar and a fraud.

Anyway, you surely are aware that arguments don’t convince, only God can. We can only state what God has told us. He will do the rest.

Verbum

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Hello Verbum.

I have found the answer I was looking for thanks. My last post explained that.

I learned a new term from you. Syncretism, interesting concept. Though I see your concern the tendancy wasn’t there to worship better but to isolate the truths in other religions to state apologetics in a more efficatious way. You see I find it is best to reinforce what common ground there is before trying to seed the rocky.

I don’t view Muhammad as a liar or a fraud at all. He may have been mislead but I believe his intention was sincere. Even if it wasn’t and his actions were cuplable that hardly is a basis to treat all of Islam any differently than with Love. If you could edit out the negative statement you made about him beginning with “On the other hand” it would be great. I’d hate to have that statement scandalize one of our friendly Muslim friends further against us or hinder my efforts to be an example of Christ.

Jesus is God. Islam is included in Gods salvation so we should do all we can to communicate with the Muslims in the example Jesus taught us just as they should in the example Muhammad tought them. We should never be disrespecting their Profit even if they do disrespect our Messiah. If we cannot do that then what chance have we of unity of any kind? Keep in mind that Islam seeks only peace with God not with men. What you say negative about Muhammad could insite attack or perpetuate hatred.